Lignin and toasting ?

possum · Post by **possum** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:17 am

Does anyone know if toasting white oak breaks down lignin (glue-like product in wood) ? I'm sure that fully carbonizing will break almost everything to carbon, but toasting ?

I aged some whiskey on a little apple wood, and some of the wood was not toasted or charred. The flavor was a little "woody" and I thought that the lignin might be the cause.

I'm not a chemistry guy, more like alchemy, but I do understand most of the core concepts, but never took organic chem.

P.S

Harry's tastylime library seems to point tward Lactones producing this flavor, but I am unsure if this is the cause.

I think I will order a 5 gallon bourbon barrel from gibs brothers when funds allow.

The Chemist · Post by **The Chemist** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:49 am

You're on the right track. Sorry, can't say more.

Watershed · Post by **Watershed** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:22 pm

My brain's toast this morning but yes toasting does break down lignin - it's the lignin that provides the aromatic ring compounds that contribute much of the flavour - vanillin is the only one I can think of off hand.

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:41 am

Chips expose flavors to extraction that barrels, split wood or sawed wood do not. Chips left too long or the use of too much will impart unwanted flavors. If not using a barrel, get some oak cut into strips and toast or char.

Here is another option.

http://www.stavin.com/homewines/products.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:34 am

Then the question arises of how long to keep the distilate on the strips? How long should one toast the strips to get the desired flavoring? The temperature chart is easy to find, but a time chart is nigh impossible...

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:43 am

Trial and error. Or if you like charred, pretty easy.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:04 am

Agreed. Personal experience is usually the best form of learning. However, I think that the purpose of this Forum is to share one's experience. When one knows about the mistakes (or in this case, more likely the successes) that others have had regarding one topic or another, it saves time and prevents needless mistakes that others have learned from already.

It's all about progress, and not repeating mistakes.

possum · Post by **possum** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:55 am

I just judge by color and flavor. The trouble I had(suspect) is some of the wood I used was not toasted. I thought the results were good, but not super-excelent...still learning.

Swag · Post by **Swag** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:12 pm

Aidas wrote:Then the question arises of how long to keep the distilate on the strips? How long should one toast the strips to get the desired flavoring? The temperature chart is easy to find, but a time chart is nigh impossible...

Jack Daniels' toast their barrels at 450 degrees for 4 hours. I toast my little strips for 2.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:56 pm

Thanks Swag. You're the first that actually gave a time figure. Coincidentaly, when I could drag an answer out of anyone for the last couple of weeks, I decided to experiment on my own, and ended up at two hours toasting as well.

So far I'm using the two hour quercus robur chips for some apple brandy, grape brandy and some framboise. After about two weeks, the apple brandy is already tasting like a nice calvados, the grape looks, and tastes like a nice brandy (though, a bit woody, yet) and the framboise I haven't tasted yet (i also added some peppercorns just for kicks -- so I'm going to try my patience for at least a month before tasting it).

Aidas

possum · Post by **possum** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:43 am

Is the framboise a brandy, or the lambic(raspberry beer) ? I love raspberry, as they grow nicely around my region.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:47 am

Damn, now I'm once again forced to show that I'm an amateur. Possum, I don't know. If by lambic, you mean a spontaneous (wild) fermentation, then no -- the framboise is a result of trying to make rasberry wine. It just so happened that the acid level was too high for it to make a potable dry wine, so I decided to distill it. My wife, who has always said that my homemade wine sucks (she's wrong on this point for the most part) is, strangely enough, enthused about the distillation part of my alcohol hobby, as she says the distillate is drinkable...

Aidas

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:21 pm

Please let the Belgian have a word...!

As Aidas said, Lambic is a beer made from grain, hop, rasberries (sometimes, not everytime...) and wild yeast (for non - industrials products)...
Rasberrie's wine is something else than Lambic... Beer is beer and wine is wine!!!
I believe (I'm sure!) there is only one brewery in Belgium (in the world) that produces artisanal Lambic with wild fermentation : it is Cantillon Brewery in Brussels... Very interesting museum and brewery's visit... It's a pitty it is in french , but they've a site : http://www.cantillon.be/br/Cantillon.php?lang=1&page=11
Otherway, I also like rasberries taste and I made a lot of liquor from this stuff, but no wine yet.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:18 pm

Once a belgian starts talking about beer, it's time to get out of the way!

In any case, I'm very happy with my framboise. If you've got rasberries in the yard or in the nearby, I highly recommend using them. Before flavoring the distillate was really complex -- with the rasberries out front and something like a peppermint nuance coming behind that. Also, my second run (to 70 % ABV), dilluted to 40%, didn't really suffer any taste detriment -- so I think the flavors really push through.

Somewhere else on this forum, someone mentioned (in response to my post about making brandy out of Lithuanian grapes -- great sugar, horrible acid) that high acid washes are better for distillation than low acid. I asked why, but never got a response. Does anyone have a theory?

Aidas

possum · Post by **possum** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:03 pm

I think I'll try a base spirit with some sugar annd frezerburnt blackraspberrys.

With the toasting of oak, or other woods :

There is another consideration that I am experimenting with. Was the wood harvested alive or standing deadwood.

I harvested and charred some apple wood from a old dead limb. The wood was not pithy or dozey, it was solid and firm with bands of dark red-brown. It was split up and charred. There were some untoasted chips or slivers thatgot in there too.

I salvaged some green trimmed apple and charred and toasted split up pieces on the grill they were all toasted through and charred.

The green harvested apple was used on the new rum for a week. The rum did not taste overly woody. The rum was a little astringent after the wood treatment, but dissipated after an adition of molassis to the spirit, and the setteling of molassis solids.

I haven't done rum on old harvest apple, but for comparison, I have some white rum, and it is not astringant.

muckanic · Post by **muckanic** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:38 am

Aidas wrote: Before flavoring the distillate was really complex --

Somewhere else on this forum, someone mentioned (in response to my post about making brandy out of Lithuanian grapes -- great sugar, horrible acid) that high acid washes are better for distillation than low acid. I asked why, but never got a response. Does anyone have a theory?

Better late than never - my theory is that acidity could increase the probability of obtaining some of the more desirable esters. However, a lot of this is also to do with the enzymes coming from the microflora. I have had some lambics that smelt like a basket of fruit, despite fruit never having been anywhere near the brew.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:54 am

I don't see the relation between esters and acidity. But then again, I'm not a chemist, or any sort of scientist, for that matter. Maybe the Chemist should weigh in here.

Aidas

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:43 am

Code: Select all

alcohol + acid => ester

is this what you mean?

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:07 am

Duh.

Vinegar is an ester as well.

Aside from one of the obvious definitions of esters, I don't see a connection between a higher acid wash being more flavorful than one that wasn't so high in acid.

From experience: I've made apple brandy from a drinkable apple wine (low acid) and from undrinkable apple wine (high acid). THe result was indistinguishable as far as taste intensity went.

This question doesn't really effect anything -- I was just curious as to the logic behind saying a high acid wash is better. I'm just happy that one can make something good from shitty high acid wine, instead of throwing it away.

On the other hand, if there really is logic behind the high acid theory, it would make sense to strive for a higher acid wash, something easily achieved in apple brandy making.

Aidas

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:18 am

Vinegar is an ester as well

I don't know why you say this, but it isn't true, it's an acid.

your question: more acid => more ester

muckanic · Post by **muckanic** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:13 pm

="possum". There is another consideration that I am experimenting with. Was the wood harvested alive or standing deadwood.

Seconded. Tell me to UTFSE if you will, but this whole charring thing looks like a bit of a black art to me. My situation is that I have some green apple trimmings which are begging to be put to a higher purpose than through the shredder and into the compost heap. Questions: (a) should I let these air-dry for a season before attempting any charring? (Obviously, if one is trying to mimic some of the characteristics of a barrel, then it would seem that seasoned timber is required, but then again we are not trying to construct a water-proof container either). (b) how does an electric oven method compare to direct gas flame?

possum · Post by **possum** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:45 am

I have used dry stuff without any sap.
I split up the wood, and remove bark. I toast and char on the outside grill to avoid the smokey kitchen.