Roled, flaked grains and how to use them

[Odin]

Mentors,

I have a question. I can buy all kinds of flaked (hot rolled I think it is) grains. Barley, oats, corn, rye, etc. I am thinking of using them for making "faux" whiskies UJSSM / Sweet Feed style.

My experience with those recipes has been with broke corn (UJSSM) and full grain oats, rye, barley for the Sweet Feed.

Now here is my question. Or actually questions. Is the fact that the grains I want to use will be flaked going to affect taste? Broken corn gave me just too little taste. My Sweet Feed is a bit hard (tanines). How will hot rolled flakes change this?

Another question I have is about quantity. For 20 liters of UJSSM / SF you need around 3 to 4 kilo's of grains. Is that the same with hot rolled grains? I ask this because using All Bran or Corn Flakes seems to ask for less as compared to UJSSM / SF with full grains.

A last question: are flakes re-usable? The Sweet Feed of UJSSM grain & yeast bed stays intact. Take out some spend grain, replace it with new grain, and of we go again with another generation. Are these hot rolled flakes re-usable in that way, or do they give up what they have in one run (asking for a new layer of grain & yeast everytime), due to the heated & very open structure?

Hope you can help & shorten my learning curve!

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

why dont you make the transition?sort of like they do beer.they start with extract then parcel mash then to full mash. use flaked grain cooked a bit add base malt,use sugar to bring up the SG.
the tannin you speak of comes from sitting on the halls.I found anything other than corn does this.

[Odin]

Dnderhead,

Maybe I am afraid to jump.

Should I boil the flakes? And isn't it like you need to be very carefull with temps and when to add the malt (64 degrees or so, keeping it there?). Or is there an easier way using "base malt". Dunno what that is. Malted barley or something easier? Or would a malt extract work? Maybe without cooking it?

New teritory ...

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

tho they say not necessary a bit of cooking dont hurt flaked grain .add flakes to hot water,simmer about 10 min.
cool to 140f /60 c, add crushed base malt.(about 20% of grain bill) you can hould at 140f/60c for the fastest convertion or just rap it in something and let it cool,,this will seporate with a layer of "gold water" on the top.
that is what your after.this is where it becomes interesting.. you can do what ever you want with this. drain it off or leave it on the grain.(i dont care for on grain ferments other than corn/maze)
add sugar or not..add more water and sugar if thats what you want..

[Odin]

Thanx guys,

So if I do like 2 kilo's of flaked corn, 2 kilo's of flaked rye, I should boil it a bit first. Then let it cool to around 64 degrees Centigrade. The add around a kilo of malted barley. I've got lightly peated malt for whisky making. Should be cracked in a mill, added to the mash. Then hold it at around 60 degrees centigrade for 90 minutes, or just wrap it and let it cool slowly.

I think, from what I read, fermenting on the grain would give some more taste. But (given the added malt), it might also up the tanines a bit. Anyhow, it is the fermentation results you might add more sugar/water too or just start the fermentation.

I am thinking like 5 kilo's of grains like above should give me around 50% = 2.5 kilo's of sugar. Enough to make 2.5 galons at 6%. 50% is based on around 70% of starch in grain and a 70% conversion rate of those starches, right?

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

for some reason it comes to mind that most flaked grains are hall less or near so. i'm not sure about this but most appear not have as much halls as whole grain.this is done to grain that is used for flour etc or maybe it comes off when being rolled.

[Odin]

Dnderhead,

The place I wanne buy from sells the grains unrolled as well. You can choose between versions with halls and without. I think they peal (?) them off before hot rolling them. In their production scheme, this is an extra step in the process needed for oats and barley but not for corn (makes sense), before flakin' them.

Odin.

[Odin]

So ... I am making the jump and will start my first all grain whiskey soon. Dnderhead, dunno how you did it, but you put something in my head. And it does not want to go out again! Thanks ... I think.

Anyhow, I have been doing some thinking and would like the experienced people around to judge my plan of attack.

I want to make a Bourbon style whiskey. Corn and some rye. Now the thought was first to use malted barley for starch conversion. Heat the flakes, boil them a bit, let it cool, pitch the crushed malted barley at around 72, 73 degrees, to get to a temp of around 65 degrees and keep it there for 90 minutes. Then it can cool over night & I will throw it in the fermenter, etc.

Now my thinking is: "why use malted barley, if you can buy malted rye for just a little bit more money?" I mean: the idea of Corn & Rye is more appealing to me than Corn & Rye & Barley. So what would happen if I replaced the malted barley (20% of the grain bill) with 20% malted & crushed rye? Is the diastatic power of rye enough? Ian Smiley says "yes", but what are the experiences on this forum?

If diastatic power of malted rye is less, I could up it to 30% or 40%. More would (I think) overwhelm the corn taste). If 20% is enough, I will still add some flaked rye as well, to get me (the malted rye included) to a 70/30 or 60/40 division between corn and rye.

Planning on doing it with grains all the way. No sugars will be added.

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

im thinking rye has more diastatic power than most barley.so yes you can do that.
many are afraid of going all grain,but dont be,,if it dont convert/or the Sg it not
up you want then just add sugar to bring it up.your not out of any thing but time.
id do a stepped mash if using rye,cook grain,cool to 95-113f/35-45c add malt let it sit for 1/2 hour,
then bring temp to 140f/60c ,hold there 1/2 hour,some kick it up to 16of/71c..

if you read over a beer forum they say not to over do the steps but we we are not after "mouth feel"
were after alcohol.so longer steps dont hurt us.

Table 11 - Major Enzyme Groups and FunctionsEnzyme
Optimum
Temperature
Range Working pH Range
Function

Phytase
86-126°F
5.0-5.5
Lowers the mash pH. No longer used.

Debranching (var.)
95-113°F
5.0-5.8
Solubilization of starches.

Beta Glucanase
95-113°F
4.5-5.5
Best gum breaking rest.

Peptidase
113-131°F
4.6-5.3
Produces Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN).

Protease
113-131°F
4.6-5.3
Breaks up large proteins that form haze.

Beta Amylase
131-150°F
5.0-5.5
Produces maltose.

Alpha Amylase
154-162°F
5.3-5.7
Produces a variety of sugars, including maltose.

Note: The above numbers were averaged from several sources and should be interpreted as typical optimum activity ranges. The enzymes will be active outside the indicated ranges but will be destroyed as the temperature increases above each range.

[Odin]

Dnderhead,

Reading your post tells me I should get the ph back to around 5.5 or probably nothing will happen.

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

it will but slower.those are the best ranges to work at.after all enzymes work at much lower temps.
its a natural proses that the grain goes throw and when it grows its not all that high.