NASTY TURBO WASH FLAVORS

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am

OK i been thinking about my latest run, i have been using turbos as of late about 10 washes now, (since i am sugar wash challenged with normal yeasts). and every single one from begining to end has had this same (heady smell) butterscotch or something else smell. Carbon filtering takes it right off even the Crappy Z-filter and the Universal carvon (1 pass).
This last time i had 1 turbo 24 hour wash. and 2 black label washes that i didn't quite let finish fermenting i think i let them go a few weeks. anyhow..
I ended up stripping them all, then running the results + some other heads and tails from before and ended up with a gallon of Perfect No smell no flavor 94-95%. However i also had A good gallon and a half of The normal smellying stuff.
I was thinking that black label yeast is suppose to be the pureest of the turbo's Do you think that i actualy had a good wash? or do you think that My strippin run on them was the culprit to the 1st time every Smellless tasteless ethenol?

I'm up for ideas,
I don't clear my washes, and i rarely let them finish is that a problem for smells/ off flavors.
I know the turbos have there own nastys... and i usualy have the same heady smell the entire run.

AllanD · Post by **AllanD** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:41 pm

"butterscotch" is most likely Diacetyl.

the EASY way to get rid of diacetyl?

Simply wait a bit longer at the end of fermentation before distilling.
waiting two or three days after fermentation is complete will allow the yeast to absorb the diacetyl.
(familiar to Brewers as a "diacetyl rest")

Diacetyl won't come off (of a simple potstill run) until AFTER the ethanol is "tapering off".

Boiling Point of diacetyl is 87-88degC so it's technically a "Tail".

yellowish-green liquid with quinone odor vapors have chlorine-like odor when concentrated, very strong odor similar to butter on diluition.

Though don't credit it for the "green" or "Blue" colors that are sometimes seen in distillate, that is usually copper acetate that is formed in copper condenser piping as a result to acetate vapor (Forming Copper(II) Acetate), cleaning with Vinegar or incomplete rinsing after cleaning with Lye (Copper (II) Carbonate)

I doubt anyone here, myself included, will ever encounter any serious quantity of diacetyl in it's pure form to see the "yellow-green" color.

Diacetyl is THE fermentation "co-generic" that is described as having a "butter" or "Butterscotch" odor, though Butanol or butadine can be described as such under different circumstances.

AllanD

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:58 pm

Butterscotchy is as close as i can describe it.. It smells like Straight up heads to me.. througout the entire run usualy with turbos.
I'm not sure why I had as much heads as i did hearts...
meby cuase i had so much of it before from other turbo runs in this last run.

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:14 am

try to run it slower, and equilize longer?

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:44 am

These are some of the reasons I stopped using turbo yeasts. EC1118 and yeast nutrients make a much nicer sugar wash. It takes longer to ferment and has lower av% than a turbo wash...but the end product is sure better.

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:12 am

I equilized for almost 2 hours .... I guess i could do it longer
I had the same smell/taste at 100 ml an hour that i had a 2000 ml an hour.
I'm not an expert but i'm really thinking its the turbo's
Since i did have over 1 gallon come off at 95% at 2000 ML an hour with no smell/taste. which comes out to about the amount of Black label turbo wash i had.. (maby it is cleaner) or I just got lucky heheh

Definatly the smell is heady.. for sure not tails.. at least thats what i think. i wish i could upload a smell. heheh

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:03 am

the time to equilize is sure long enough
and 100 ml/hour is sure slow enough

yeah, it must be the turbo ...

AllanD · Post by **AllanD** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:09 am

I never got the point of "turbo yeasts"...

Supposedly they will ferment higher gravity washes to higher alcohol levels....
But they don't ferment faster that way than the same quantity of sugar
would if spread through a larger quantity of water...

And it's particularly not worth it for the off flavors and sells that many people complain about.

Now for "heads smell "Vs "Tails smell" descriptions
How about describing what the smells actually are?

Simply saying "head" smells or "tail" smells approaches being impossibly vague.... without knowing that the person making that statement is actually using the same vocabulary... the description is not particularly useful. I just want to know that we are on the same page

To ME "heads" have a sharp "fruity" solvent smell (I.E. Nail polish remover) this is primarily the smell of Ethyl Acetate (BP 74'C)

"Tails" have an acrid "sour" (almost "vomit") smell (the smell of Butadine/Butanol/Butyric Acid)

Between the alcohol and "tails" (overlapping with both) is the DiAcetyl

Smelling Diacetyl means you should have already stopped
collecting for "product" (unless you are making full bodied rum)
and should be collecting for "recovery" to get the last of the
alcohol out of the run... (Waste not!)

Though I suppose that with Turbo yeast you could be producing
Iso-Butyraldehyde (BP 62'C) and the only description I've ever read for this compound is "Clear, colorless, nonviscous liquid. STENCH."

Which I suppose could be similar to the smell of other Butyl aldehydes and ketones. (Butyric Acid is sometimes described as smelling like Vomit)

AllanD

Enlikil · Post by **Enlikil** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:03 am

Ok... here ya go.
your comment:
To ME "heads" have a sharp "fruity" solvent smell (I.E. Nail polish remover) thats about it to a T but more on the fruity side My wife described it as sweet turpintine smelling. it was definatly sweet smelling.

I would agree with your tails description as well

On my run i had 2.8 liters come off smelling like heads then it Cleared right up and i took another 3 liters off that smelled like nothing (i woud call it perfect ethanol). Then the tails started to come in barely throuhg the next 800 ml's then REALLY strong in the following 800 and i killed it.

I had put almost 2 liters of heady smelling stuff in it from other runs too.

Also, ALl of my previous runs smelled Excatly the same throughout the entire run, Fruity, smelling the smell died down quite about after the first liter thouhg but it was there faint enough for me to still smell it, I hope its just the turbro nasties,... Carbon cleaned them up to almost un noticable to me, and I knew the smell..

I hope that helps

AllanD · Post by **AllanD** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:31 pm

I'm doing an expirement with a "new" (to me anyway) yeast and the first thing I noticed was that I get a small ammount of low boiling iso-Butyraldehyde before the ethanol, in addition to the larger ammount of it
in the tails during final extraction.

The yeast I've seen this with?
Crosby&Baker packaged ALLTECH "Super Start Distillers yeast"

this yeast starts reliably enough that I'll buy more of it and live with it's less desirable secondary characteristics.....

Particularly since I got it for $8 for a 1/2kilo bag.

possum · Post by **possum** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:22 am

Really ALLEND ? I used the Crosby&Baker "Super Start Distillers yeast", and have not smelled any "vomitous smell" in the early distillation.
Maybee it produces the compound only in a particular pH or nutrient environment.
I used this yeast for whiskey and rum.
For the rum, I aim for full bodied rum, and use a backset and resugar and molassis proces to build up flavor.
Similar proces for the whiskey.
I use citrus juice for the rum, and the whiskey comes out fine with just a backset addition.

Right now I am using Crosby&Baker "Super Start Distillers yeast" alone, but previously I used it in conjunction with several othe whitelab strains.

I do like the Crosby&Baker "Super Start Distillers yeast".

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:05 am

Distillers yeast for me.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:51 am

dang, I was just at the homebrew shop looking for a new whiskey yeast to try... saw that yeast, but passed on buying it...

AllanD · Post by **AllanD** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:22 am

I've so far only "cooked" one batch fermented on this yeast so
it COULD very possibly be some outside bacterial contamination.

So I don't know if it's a repeatable problem...

AllanD

possum · Post by **possum** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:37 am

I really recomend it.
My best results came from the mixture of whitelabs high gravity yeast (#PL 025), whitelabs new english ale yeast (#007), whitelabs edinborough ale yeast, and the crosby distillers. All fermenting together. The mix was good for grain based and molassis sugar based still stock.