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Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:38 am
by Buccaneer Bob
At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, I want to pitch something out there as food for thought.

I have been entertaining a theory that one of the primary reasons why they make barrels out of white oak instead of other hardwoods is not because white oak imparts liquors and wines with more magical flavors/colors than other hardwoods. It is actually because white oak imparts liquor and wine with less flavor or color over time than many other hardwoods.

Let's say that a distillery makes a liquor with an overabundance of undesirable head esters that need years to break down into something more palatable.

If they put their liquor into a barrel made from a darker, potentially more flavorful wood like apple wood or plum wood for three or four years, just imagine how dark and flavored it would be when it finally comes out of such a barrel.

That is why they use white oak, emphasis on the "white" part -- less color and I would venture less flavoring potential than other woods.

I am basing this theory on my own experiments using apricot wood. I was given a good deal of apricot wood by my neighbor, who ripped out an older orchard to make room for corn, and I am really liking how apricot wood flavors and colors my spirits.

And it doesn't take long, either. Oak might take a lot of folks weeks to get much flavor or color out of it, but I can get some really great flavor and color from apricot wood in a matter of days. I actually have to keep a close eye on things to keep from going overboard with it.

So I am thinking that there have to be many other alternative woods that will work just as well as white oak for coloring and flavoring spirits and that there are some woods that will actually work a lot better for some hobby distillers in certain situations.

Hobby distillers are not trying to meet production quotas and profit margins, and they can afford to play it safer with their cuts. So they really don't need to age their spirits for four years to get them to a drinkable state.

Me, I can't even imagine putting my liquor in a barrel and hoping I will still be around in three or four years to enjoy it.

Let's face it, barrel aging has its roots in an era when distillers didn't have access to biochemists who could tell them what kinds of chemicals a particular yeast is producing and why or access to gas chromatographs to tell them what they need to pitch and what they need to keep.

They got what they got, they dumped it in a barrel, and they came back a few years later to find that their liquor had magically been transformed into something much more desirable than it was when it first went into the barrel. And they passed that tradition down from generation to generation.

Of course, we hobby and craft distillers, living in the age we do, have the internet and more information than we could ever hope to absorb in a lifetime: recipes shared by wonderful folks who don't feel the need to carefully guard their trade secrets, yeast producers' websites and all of their considerable knowledge, forums to ask questions, you name it.

So I would contend that we have all the tools that we need to make a better liquor than our forefathers could have ever imagined with the tools and information they had access to a century or more ago. And we are not chained to a barrel for long-term aging purposes.

Moreover, we hobby and craft distillers should be looking at wood, not for long-term storage purposes, but as "flavor sticks" and "color cubes", if you will.

We should be exploring the benefits of a variety of alternative woods -- apple wood, plum wood, cherry wood, pecan wood, etc. -- and a myriad of combinations of those alternatives, with an eye toward imparting our liquors with the most desirable flavors and colors that we can come up with.

Yes, maybe it does make sense to age whiskey on oak. But how much sense does it make to age peach brandy on oak? Think about it. Wouldn't it make much more sense to age peach brandy on peach wood? Apple brandy on apple wood? Rum on, say, a combination of cherry wood, apple wood, and plum wood?

It seems to me that there is a whole realm of flavoring and coloring possibilities that have probably never been properly explored. And we hobby and craft distillers are the ones who should be leading the charge. Heck, we're the only ones with the freedom to actually do it.

I mean, it's not like the Jack Daniels folks can come out and say, "Hey everybody, we were wrong about the mystical properties of our charred oak barrels. We found out that Japanese Plum wood works a lot better."

It would be like "New Coke" all over again ... for those of you who were around to witness that fiasco. :roll:

As a general guideline for which woods might be acceptable, I would encourage folks to peruse any of the various "wood toxicity charts" available on the internet.

These charts were not created with the concept of "extracted essences and colors of particular woods through direct contact with ethanol" in mind, but they are certainly helpful as a starting point.

The only woods that I am sure one would need to avoid are the ones that say something to the effect of "direct toxin". Oddly, they say that sassafras is one of only a handful of woods that are "direct toxins", and for how many centuries was root beer and tea made from sassafras root? Go figure, huh?

But, of course, many of the other woods on the lists might impart flavors or colors that would make a liquor terribly undesirable or unpleasant to drink. For me, pine comes to mind, but perhaps somebody else might actually like using a little pine for something like gin. Who knows?

I, personally, like the idea of using woods from trees that produce things that we eat on a regular basis and that tend to have an agreeable and complementary aroma when freshly worked. But that's just me.

So what do you all think about all of this?

Am I full of crap?

Or have some of you had good experiences infusing your liquors with flavors and colors from other woods?

If so, what were they?

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:50 am
by myles
I don't think you are full of crap.
Certainly wine producers use different types of wood, chestnut springs to mind and balsamic vinegar goes through a progression of different barrels. I have a few pdf's that might be of interest. One is actually a wood smoking flavour chart but it might have some bearing.
SmokingFlavorChart.pdf
(85.39 KiB) Downloaded 2903 times
oak.pdf
(37.16 KiB) Downloaded 1468 times
oak barrel aging.pdf
(15.7 KiB) Downloaded 1588 times

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:19 am
by Buccaneer Bob
Great information to have, myles. Thanks. :D

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:36 am
by Washashore
White oak has a very high vanillin content (relative to other hardwoods) which imparts a very nice flavor to whiskey.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:33 pm
by heartcut
Thanks, Myles. I've used Apple (good), Mesquite (mistake) and White Oak (favorite) and intend to try others. Don't have a lab, so going off other's experiences and published materials will, hopefully, help avoid bad flavors and toxins.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:49 pm
by junkyard dawg
interesting post...

The story I heard is that white oak was preferred as tight barrel material because of the grain. It tends to swell up tight and not leak when used to hold liquids. Thats not the case with many other woods... I bet the flavor of the wood never came up in the conversation about what trees made good barrels. back in the day...

Today we surely have a much bigger playground.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:30 pm
by rumbuff
White oak has tyloses that make it liquid tight, as well as the vannillans. I'm currently making my own vanilla extract, so that might soon not be a problem. I also remember reading that a small batch of whiskey was aged in Maple barrels, but of course they leak and are a pain. I age everything in glass, with cork stoppers, and I add maple, oak and cherry, all toasted and virgin into the carboy. I have access to the planer at work and just make a bunch of chips from scrap. I'm going to try using cherry chips to smoke some barley in the next couple of weeks to do a "west coast scotch". If I had any apple I'd love to try it.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:59 pm
by myles
The wine retsina gets one of its flavours from pine resin. Anyone tried using pine yet? :lol:

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:32 pm
by frozenthunderbolt
myles wrote:The wine retsina gets one of its flavours from pine resin. Anyone tried using pine yet? :lol:
tried a bit of powdered Kauri gum -turned the gum white and the spirit into a beautiful pale yellow turpentine/kerro

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:53 pm
by Buccaneer Bob
As I mentioned, I have really been liking apricot wood. The sapwood gives my spirits a magnificent honey hue, and the heartwood takes it to a really gorgeous darker amber color.

I just love holding a bottle of nicely colored liquor up to the sunlight. It almost reminds me of looking into some kind of jewel or something.

Flavor-wise, apricot adds a nice wood complexity that rounds-out my spirits without any sort of bitterness. I'm guessing it's the inherent sugars in the wood that keeps the flavor from being more bitter.

I also experimented with plum wood, but I bailed on the experiment a day or two into the process after my rum started taking on more of a purple hue. Purple rum just didn't seem to have that much appeal for me. :D

But just imagine a nice, deep purplish hue on a blackberry brandy, for instance. I'm thinking that color would only add to the appeal of liquors from berries, cherry, plum, that kind of thing.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:30 am
by kobold
i have a bag of hickory chips i originally bought for smoking chipotles - encouraged by positive reports i will try soaking them

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:09 am
by striker85
Any feedback on the hickory?

I used maple that had a dark toast and after only a week or so, the aftertaste to the whiskey tasted like maple syrup....not terrible but a little strong for me.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:30 am
by Bushman
Good thread BB thanks for starting it. In my research seems like any fruit wood makes for good aging. I have a trunk of a plum tree I plan to cut and use in large glass containers for aging and comparison of flavor. My thought is to age the same run and split it between oak and the plum wood to see if I can tell the difference after 6-8 months.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:12 am
by Im gone
I had a locally distilled commercial whiskey that was aged on oak and mesquite. It was quite good.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:39 am
by ro palinca
I can add from traditional sources and personal experience mulberry wood for brandy (palinca), it is used as wood sticks in glass or as barrels. It must be at least 1 year old and seasoned because the sap is slightly toxic. The flavor and color is excellent.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:11 am
by kobold
striker85 wrote:Any feedback on the hickory?

I used maple that had a dark toast and after only a week or so, the aftertaste to the whiskey tasted like maple syrup....not terrible but a little strong for me.
had no suitable spirit - that's fairly neutral in taste - for this trial until recently. not really a controlled experiment.
i added 15-20g heavily toasted hickory chips a few days ago to 500ml freshly made dwwg. a ten times larger volume of dwwg received 1/l toasted (60%) and charred (40%) oak dominoes, 10ml/l maple syrup and 10ml/l oloroso sherry. at this point i like the hickory more than the oak/sherry/maple syrup influence. the nose is definitely better, a deep, warming glow. the colour is richer, but the dosage and volume is not proportionate to the oaked batch.
the hickory seems to impart more flavour, but that maybe only because i used large oak dominoes that won't release compounds as quickly as the small hickory chips. so, it's too early to say anything, but there is potential in it. will report back.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:29 pm
by Zippo
Some good Information here.

Has any one tried Mahogany ?

The only reason I ask this is because my boss at work has two shipping containers FULL of Mahogany and some stuff called Iron Wood from Nigera, He use's it for building some sort of wood contraptions. ( I prefer building my madness out of steel but to each there own)


Would using ether one of these above mentioned woods add good/bad flavors to a Whiskey?

Has any one Tried any form of Citrus tree?

I live down here in Florida so we have citrus every where so its easy to get the wood. Also Just wondering the possibilities here, Because why not try every odd idea to keep things interesting? :eugeek: How about the wood from an avocado tree?

I mean when were trying to age booze would it be better to use a hard wood or a soft? Or does it really matter?

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:27 am
by Paracelsus
Guys: be careful:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/a ... woods.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:06 am
by Truckinbutch
Paracelsus wrote:Guys: be careful:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/a ... woods.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Thank you for posting that . I was going to offer the same cautions but didn't have the chapter and verse that your link provides . I think leaching toxins from woods with high proof alcohol would only concentrate and intensify adverse effects .

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:00 pm
by frozenthunderbolt
I would add that oak contains a fair number of acids and tannins that assist in the ester-fication process that is vital to (conventional) flavour formation.
I would guess (with nothing to back me up :thumbup: ) that little to no research has been done on what other woods release when exposed to 50-65% ethanol :P

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:01 am
by Buccaneer Bob
Paracelsus wrote:Guys: be careful:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/a ... woods.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
You will notice in my original post that I wrote:
Buccaneer Bob wrote:As a general guideline for which woods might be acceptable, I would encourage folks to peruse any of the various "wood toxicity charts" available on the internet.

These charts were not created with the concept of "extracted essences and colors of particular woods through direct contact with ethanol" in mind, but they are certainly helpful as a starting point.

The only woods that I am sure one would need to avoid are the ones that say something to the effect of "direct toxin". Oddly, they say that sassafras is one of only a handful of woods that are "direct toxins", and for how many centuries was root beer and tea made from sassafras root? Go figure, huh?
Now then, we can sit around and debate particular woods all we want.

One guy can pull up a wood toxicity chart stating that oak dust can cause nasopharyngeal cancer, make the claim that oak probably causes other cancers, as well, and scare everybody off of using oak.

And another guy can pull up data suggesting that whiskey aged on oak contains antioxidants that ward-off cancer.

And where did we get with the discussion? Does oak cause cancer, or does it prevent cancer? Which is it?

Well, each one of us has to research things out and try to make the best decisions we can make.

Beyond that, though, none of us was ever guaranteed immortality by making all the right choices in life.

We do what we do and we live our lives here as long as we do, and maybe there actually is a connection between our decisions and the length of our lives, and maybe there's not.

That's just the way that it is.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:00 am
by Paracelsus
Well, each one of us has to research things out and try to make the best decisions we can make.

Beyond that, though, none of us was ever guaranteed immortality by making all the right choices in life.

We do what we do and we live our lives here as long as we do, and maybe there actually is a connection between our decisions and the length of our lives, and maybe there's not.

That's just the way that it is.
Wow.

I was just reiterating caution and safety.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:06 am
by wv_cooker
Buccaneer Bob, full of crap? Absolutely not, forward thinking, absolutely. Much needed, yes.

Thanks Myles for the charts.

Yes let's be careful of poisonous woods,

But let's move out of prohibition.

My 2 cents :clap: :clap:

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:27 pm
by bowhunt76
Dont mean to hi-jack but.....i just brought home a load of cherry wood and am wondering would i follow the same prep for cherry as i would oak. Dry cut toast char?? If so would it hurt to cut it up now to facilitate a faster drying or should i just forget about it for a year?.. Was thinkin i could cut it up into at least planks to facilitate easier storage.. I wanna try some of this cherry with the nuke method eventually.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:37 pm
by bellybuster
I would definitely plank it. 1 year per inch for air drying.
So far from my inexperienced experiments, cherry is a winner. I do not toast it. Just char and toss in. haven't tried nuking cherry yet but will.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:28 pm
by bowhunt76
cool thanks bb..maybe ill leave half untoasted and compared..onna side note this weekend i had the pleasure of gettin into some "whistle pig" 100% rye that is aged 10 yrs on uncharred virgin oak (what i was told)... damn good whiskey..any thoughts on that? uncharred ive never had anything that was aged on clean oak was i sold a line of bs?

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:03 am
by Botanyphd
I had a friend try aging on a dowel of toasted walnut. It was the taste of mothballs that made us pour it out. Not a good wood to try FYI.

He also tried a moderate soak on medium toasted white oak, then finished it off with a toasted cherry wood strips. That was a nice flavor.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:13 am
by Bushman
Botanyphd wrote:I had a friend try aging on a dowel of toasted walnut. It was the taste of mothballs that made us pour it out. Not a good wood to try FYI.

He also tried a moderate soak on medium toasted white oak, then finished it off with a toasted cherry wood strips. That was a nice flavor.
In my area dowels can be made from a variety of woods and the oak one's are red oak probably not suited for aging. White oak or most fruit trees work. Make sure you use the heartwood from the tree.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:01 pm
by magnetic_tarantula
Zippo wrote:Some good Information here.

Has any one tried Mahogany ?

The only reason I ask this is because my boss at work has two shipping containers FULL of Mahogany and some stuff called Iron Wood from Nigera, He use's it for building some sort of wood contraptions. ( I prefer building my madness out of steel but to each there own)


Would using ether one of these above mentioned woods add good/bad flavors to a Whiskey?

Has any one Tried any form of Citrus tree?

I live down here in Florida
A company in Florida called Palm Ridge Reserve uses some Orangewood in their Bourbon.

Re: Oak vs. Other Woods

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:04 pm
by Drunken Unicorn
I've been wondering the same thing. There is a exotic wood store near me and I got some African Mahogany.

Some of these charts say the African Mahogany can be an irritant, but does that apply to alcohol? Some of these lists have oak. Hrm.

My hope is that as long as it isn't listed as a direct toxin, we should be okay.

Anyhow, I plan to test a number of woods under controlled circumstances. Yay for science!

DU