Let's discuss the dephlegmater

[Bushman]

Disclaimer: I am not writing about which condenser is better or if ¾” pipes are better than ½” pipes for condensation although that is probably the most asked question on designing the condenser. I don’t have those answers for you. What I want to do is point out the most common one and some of the advantages and disadvantages to it and also explain my build which is a little different. I do want to say however the dephlegmater in my estimation is the one condenser that has changed how we look at CM stills and there capability of making different spirits. The CM still once thought of as an inferior design in reflux stilling has now moved up as it has the ability of making both a good whiskey and a good vodka which makes it more versatile than a VM design (I have both).

I got to thinking this morning that fewer holes with larger diameter is easier to build and that I may have mislead members when I said that I drilled 5 holes (actually milled) ¾” diameter and it will give me 100% reflux. My statement is true but I actually have more area for vapor to rise than the 5 holes which I explain below. Here is where I want to explain my design and its advantages and disadvantages compared to others.

Here is probably the more typical design that people build or buy:

The difference between a dephlegmater and a shotgun condenser is location and length. A dephlegmater is located on a CM still at the top of the column, is usually shorter than the shotgun condenser and is used to reflux vapor.
Let’s look at the most common one pictured above, its advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages:
It’s modular and can be removed easily from the still with the tri-clamp connectors.
Easy to clean
Allows more flexibility in the alteration of the still

Disadvantages:
Cost as you have two ferrules and two tri-clamps to keep it together.

Now let’s look at my dephlegmater:

I did not design mine (it was Mash Rookies design) but we built it together. My design rather than fit on top of a column, drops into the column. We took a 4” diameter pipe 6” long and cut it length wise (taking out a small section). We then pulled it together and soldered it making it just small enough that it would fit into the 4” column. Thus my opening statement about having 5 holes but actually I have more than that for the vapor to rise as it can rise outside the dephlegmater between the dephlegmater and the column yet when in full reflux nothing escapes through the tubes or outside as there is enough coolant.
Note in the picture above the water entering the dephlegmater is forced to the bottom and then rises to the top as the pipe goes all the way down and ends about a 1/2" from the bottom, the hot water leaving is at the top of the dephlegmater.
The picture below shows the 3 parts I milled for this. The first circled part is the bottom of the dephlegmater and the middle one is the top. Note that the top has 2 more holes 1/2" instead of 3/4" for the water lines to enter and leave. The third part sits a ways above the dephlegmater and is soldered to both water pipes, which allows me to slip the dephlegmater into the column. This also was measured to match a 4" ferrule to attach to the column by tri-clamp. I also added a small grove that would allow for the gasket to fit properly on both the ferrule and my part. This would not be necessary as you could cut that raised part off like most do for fitting their 2" to a sanke keg when attaching their column.

cnc2.jpg (14.27 KiB) Viewed 4301 times

Advantages:
Cheaper as I did not need to purchase ferrules and it is attached with only one tri-clamp
slides out easily for cleaning

Disadvantage:
It is not as flexible for changing out and adding to an existing column

PS: I also wanted to just throw out some ideas for building as I am planning on building a pot still this winter and have an idea for a double jacketed liebig condenser that I think will be easier to build than the ones I've seen designed.

[Prairiepiss]

I would like to point out. A dephlegmater doesn't have to be a shotgun type. It could be any condenser type that can act as a partial condenser. And allow a portion of the vapors to pass by it. The ability to maintain 100% reflux isn't a must. But can be a very good advantage. The one built for OD's first magic flute was a jacketed condenser type. And mine is a coil of 1/4" tubing. MR has made one or two with coils also.

Wasn't real sure as to where you wanted this thread to go. Just thought I would throw this out there.

[Bushman]

I would like to point out. A dephlegmater doesn't have to be a shotgun type. It could be any condenser type that can act as a partial condenser. And allow a portion of the vapors to pass by it. The ability to maintain 100% reflux isn't a must. But can be a very good advantage. The one built for OD's first magic flute was a jacketed condenser type. And mine is a coil of 1/4" tubing. MR has made one or two with coils also.

Wasn't real sure as to where you wanted this thread to go. Just thought I would throw this out there.

No problem, Samohon's dephlag on the diagram thread is also different and his diagram of a shotgun also looks like the dephlegmater. I don't care what direction we head just thought I would open it up for discussion and was too lazy to show all the different types but maybe this would be a place to begin.
You are also right about the 100% reflux, that is something I wanted to try and reach aesotrope. I also looked at the coil but didn't think on a 4" column it would allow me the ability to reach 100% reflux. That was just a conclusion I came to without any testing. MR's coil was built a little different than the double coil (wish I had a picture of it) but when I saw his still it was flatter and went back and forth more like a radiator.

[googe]

I always wondered why you had the gap between the rc and the top plate on yours?. I was going to do that style on my new rig but changed it to a soldered in one with a single inner tube, first time I've tried it, I think olddog and red did it on the first bubblers. I like messing with deflags, there interesting. My thinking is, more inner tubes = more cooling area when refluxing and more heat when you start taking product which should = finer control . That should mean a long deflag with lots of inner tubes should work the same as a shorter one with less inner tubes?. Deflag size is over rated most of the time, the one on my bubbler is 120mm x 3" with 5 x 3/4" inner tubes and is way over powered. Bt1 did one (tuna can) that I think was 50mm high and still did the job.

[Bushman]

I always wondered why you had the gap between the rc and the top plate on yours?. I was going to do that style on my new rig but changed it to a soldered in one with a single inner tube, first time I've tried it, I think olddog and red did it on the first bubblers. I like messing with deflags, there interesting. My thinking is, more inner tubes = more cooling area when refluxing and more heat when you start taking product which should = finer control . That should mean a long deflag with lots of inner tubes should work the same as a shorter one with less inner tubes?. Deflag size is over rated most of the time, the one on my bubbler is 120mm x 3" with 5 x 3/4" inner tubes and is way over powered. Bt1 did one (tuna can) that I think was 50mm high and still did the job.

Before I researched locations of gin basket, my plan was to put it in the gap thus one of the reasons for the extra space, but now it hangs inside the boiler as I think it probably works better there.

[Odin]

"I do want to say however the dephlegmater in my estimation is the one condenser that has changed how we look at CM stills and there capability of making different spirits."

+1 Bushman!

[wv_cooker]

Here is a little reading on the subject.

The first is one of our own.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=28410

The second is probably more info than one wants to read lol.
http://www.slideshare.net/GerardBHawkin ... hlegmators

A google search of Dephlegmator will bring massive amounts of info on the subject.

[Bushman]

WV on your first link, old dog responded with the following comment:

Usge wrote:
After looking at some images, reading, etc...the next thing I tried was moding my dephleg head. I added another input nipple to it..just below the top one..on the back side..to use as input from the liebig/product condenser. And I put the needle valve on the bottom...now used to control "output" (reversing flow). And I put a drain/overflow tube onto the original top/left output nipple. This...worked like a charm! I can feed my deplh from the liebig, without having to worry about backpressure/flow issues. If the rate of flow in is more than it is out..is simply drains off the top maintaining a full delph. Moving the needle vavles ..even in very small increments, was working great. And going even from full open, to full closed..and back...didn't screw up the water flow (ie., cause a vacum, etc). I've only tested this with water...but so far...it seems to work really well and allows for very fine adjustment.

This is why when I designed the original Flute, I installed a restrictor valve on the output from the dephlegmater, It means that the dephlegmater is always full, and prevents syphoning, and a precise coolant flow can be maintained.



OD

If you zoom in on my picture on the output you will see my restrictor, I think this is an important part of the design. Also I have a lot of respect for flying dutchman however he makes one statement:

My understanding is that the purpose of a dephlegmator is to condense some but not all of the vapor to liquid w/out obstructing the overall vapor path.

This is true for some but if you want to be versatile and be able to make both whiskey and vodka or gin you need to have the flexibility to condense all vapor depending on the product.

[wv_cooker]

Meant nothing by the post Bushy was just throwing some extra info from well respected members.

My first still was an LM and instead of a coil I used KS's 12 - port 1/2" tube Dephlegmator patterns as my condenser. Being a simple 2" reflux column the condenser will knock down everything that comes at it. You are absolutely correct that a good Dephlegmator should be able to be put into 100% Reflux and be able to be controlled down to any percentage reflux that you want, this would be a great thread to see if we can figure out how to achieve perfection.

The biggest question's I see is how big does it need to be for this or that application, what size tubes and how many tubes. My next question would be is there a time that a coil would be better. Some other things that I have seen are these stainless steel corrugated coil condensers and I wonder could this be used efficiently as a Dephlegmator and possibly be easier and cheaper to build.

In my second link they mention U shaped down legs instead of tube and shell condensers, could these be a viable alternative? So many questions to raise in this thread and so much info could come from it. Thanks for starting it.

Your condenser is efficient in the way it works and is similar to that used by OD in his MKII I have thought of using it in certain applications, but now you have the head whirling again, lol. I recently came across some 4" stainless pipe and have been building a couple new stills to play and experiment with, I just cut out a 4" to use as a CM reflux column packed with 36" of lava rock, let's use it to experiment. What type Dephlegmator should I use and what material should it be made of? In the true spirit of Mash Rookie let's do something new since I have it. All ideas accepted from anyone who wants to participate? Let's choose a type, a material, and see if we can come up with the perfect sizes to make it efficient from 0% to 100% reflux.

Not to steal your thread but it would be a perfect study thread if it's ok, Thanks Bushman.

[Bushman]

This is the dialog I was hoping for, it was actually that comment that OD led me to add the restrictor on my water line on. The second is just basically my opinion and a few others about having 100% reflux ability on a CM still and what it adds to your product ability. I actually liked both of your links, the first one I haven't visited in a while and the second I hadn't seen before and plan to give it a little more time.

[wv_cooker]

As a Dephlegmator is just a fancy word for a reflux condenser that we use controls to allow some vapor to bypass to the product condenser and return the rest to the column as partial reflux I can see us using about any type of condenser as long as it has 3 things.

1. Surface area - it would need enough surface area to allow contact with 100% of the vapor to create equilibrium or total reflux.

2. Heat dissipation - It needs to be efficient at dissipating heat in order to condense vapor to liquid

3. Control - In order to be an efficient Dephlegmator we need to be able to control it from 0% to 100% reflux

A shell and tube or shotgun as we currently use is efficient due to the amount of surface area of the water in the chamber surrounding the tubes. But if we think about it a double helix coil is also efficient at creating total reflux in a boka or nixon stone as a reflux condenser. add control to these and they should work as well. With PP's rig we know this to be true as he uses a coil instead of a shotgun. So this leaves us with the questions of what problems or issues are involved with each that effect efficiency and control? And what sizes create the surface area needed to create total reflux for each application?

I have an idea currently of using flexible tubing to create a heat exchanger of sorts without tools or jigs for those that don't have the tools or ability to build complicated designs. I will get a drawing together later today and post it. Please be aware I am no artist so it will be crude, lol.

Any thoughts or input or ideas from anyone will be appreciated.

[Bushman]

Good points, with my VM still I had a double coil which easily knocked everything down. My biggest problem was the attachment point where the water lines attached to a 1/4" coil for strength.

Currently on my CM rig I have two places I control the coolant. Two separate valves that split the direction of the water sending one to the reflux condenser and the other to the product condenser. Both of these are adjustable, the other place I have a water adjustment and not sure it is that important is I hooked up a noozle to the waterline that can be adjusted.

Garden%20Hose%20Nozzle.jpg (5.45 KiB) Viewed 4159 times

I also use clear tubing both in and out of the still, the one thing that may become a problem is my outlet line from the reflux get's much hotter thus has discolored the line. I like having the clear tube as it is just one more indicator besides touching, and amount of product collecting that I use to regulate the pressure.

[wv_cooker]

All of these pretty pics and I am going to ruin them with my drawing lol. As I said no artist here. anyway here is my Idea using corrugated flexible tubing.

This would be easy to do by hand no tools or jigs needed.

The more I look at the different type condensers it becomes apparent that using them as a dephlegmator comes down coolant flow and coolant temperature. Once your condenser is efficient enough to achieve total reflux and I might add hold the column in equilibrium, then it is just a matter of backing it up to allow a percentage of vapor to bypass to the Product condenser and returning the rest to the column as reflux.

It also dawned on me that you could use the parent site calculator to calculate the amount of tube you would need for this type condenser.

All thoughts and comments welcome, as long as you don't laugh at my drawing skill, lol.

[Bu77hed]

I have a N/S offset head and I can run it with a 40 in or a 12 in column. I'm thinking of putting a dephlegmator at the top of the column with a sight glass just below it.

dephlegmater.jpg (8.63 KiB) Viewed 3796 times

with this just below it

med-img-sight_glass.jpg (6.13 KiB) Viewed 3796 times

Is there any benefit to adding these pieces to my rig? I'm hoping for more versatility.

[Prairiepiss]

I have a N/S offset head and I can run it with a 40 in or a 12 in column. I'm thinking of putting a dephlegmator at the top of the column with a sight glass just below it.

dephlegmater.jpg

med-img-sight_glass.jpg

Is there any benefit to adding these pieces to my rig? I'm hoping for more versatility.

No not really. You are talking about adding components from one type of reflux still. To another type of reflux still. And the way you are describing it. It will hurt your outcome more then improve it.

You need to fully understand the theorys of both designs. LM and CM. Before you will fully understand why it won't work. And before you go trying to combine the two.

[Bu77hed]

Thanks PP,
My thoughts were to replace the reflux return valve and line with the dephegmator. That would make my coiled condenser a product condenser. The sight glass would give me some input as to what's going on.
I think there would be times when I want to run it differently running different recipes, small batches, or stripping runs. I'm looking for mix-n-match versatility in one still and not have to have 2-3 stills.
I've read about CMs, VMs, TMs, BMs, xMs, et all till my head hurts. There is a lot of info out there and not all of it is correct or pertains to my situation. Much is old and misleading, even on this site. I will continue to read and learn, as we all do.
Thanks again.
B.

[ohyeahyeah]

Maybe someone could explain the advantage to the restrictor on the output? I'm not quite getting it. Mine is a home made version of the first one and i just put the tap on the bottom(input) and use it to control flow coming out the top. I have considered adding a ninety degree upwards on the drain with a short stack so the top 3/4" or so of the deflag fills with water too. I use separate feeds for my condensor and deflag.

[emptyglass]

Dosnt really mater how you restrict the flow. Your not really restricting it, more controlling it.
That said, if you have a shotgun/tube and case style condenser, depending on your plumbing, you can run the risk of the condenser draining if it is restricted on the inlet, particularly if your inlet is at the top and the drain runs down from there.
Simply raising the height of the drain above the inlet will fix that.

By restricting the outlet, you don't need to mess with the drain, it always stays full.

[googe]

That's a good point empty, a valve on the output side will hold the coolent to be warmed. I run mine with a valve on the input side, my feed lines are above any of my input output lines, gravity plays a.big part in holding coolent water down. I have it so, it feeds onto the base of the deflag, out the top onto the PC outlet, the PC outlet combined with RV outlet plus gravity holds it at how I want it.

[Odin]

On my LM iStill I have a column cooler that isn't really a dephlag, because it just cooles everything down. I did find out that controlling the water flow via the outlet was very beneficial. Water stays in longer, heats up and is - compared to running it via the water inlet much more efficient.

Same holds for "real" deplhags?

Odin.

[friendly1uk]

If the shotgun tubes stuck out the bottom half inch, they could be slash cut to guide the condense to the packing. I fear much of the condense from the outer jacket may just slip down the column wall doing more harm to your packing temperature gradient than it aids fractioning.

Of course, you would need packing to begin with.


Edited out, then back in as I was quoted lol

I have been pondering over my own design (probably not new, but I have not seen it). I was just going to go ahead and make it, as experimentation is fun. This seems a place to share it though.
... I'm thinking along the lines of a liebig in the top. Stop laughing... Double jacket using flexi-pipe for it's larger surface area and turbulent effects know to transfer heat better in hvac systems. I don't expect 100% from it, but do expect the condense sending down dead center through scrubbies. Perhaps in a lightly insulated column(it is too easy to not try). My hope is that good use of my packing will allow a smaller volume of condense returning. I want to see if that means 100% is never needed. I think the result will be labour intensive and I won't get the last bit. How small a liebig though. Obviously I won't be boiling more than 3 gallons, and I hear there is a calculator. I'm doing it myself though, So toying with 8" (and no that is not a euphemism)

Good to hear googe finding 20" of 3/4 oversized. My double walled 8" is sounding close for my low power needs.

[Bushman]

Hmm, you are really thinking and I don't have an answer to your first part. Harry & MR both made glass columns for testing purposes that might verify your first claim. As for the second part a double walled liebig has been built as a product condenser but I have not seen it used as a reflux condenser. I designed one but have yet to build it as it is slightly different than the one Myles built. You might want to PM him for some pictures, or I could post several drawings of double walled liebig condensers designs I am toying with.

[Bushman]

Dosnt really mater how you restrict the flow. Your not really restricting it, more controlling it.
That said, if you have a shotgun/tube and case style condenser, depending on your plumbing, you can run the risk of the condenser draining if it is restricted on the inlet, particularly if your inlet is at the top and the drain runs down from there.
Simply raising the height of the drain above the inlet will fix that.

By restricting the outlet, you don't need to mess with the drain, it always stays full.

Well said, look at my picture, the restricter is on the outlet and the outlet is above the condenser. The reflux condenser needs to be full in order for the CM to fully work properly as stated above!