Saving yeast

[BoisBlancBoy]

I was wondering if you can save the yeast colony that builds up in say an UJSSM wash? I was thinking that if it were possible I could save and store some for the next time I run UJ or anything that calls for the same yeast.

[bellybuster]

Yes you can but depending on the yeast you are using it may not be worth the effort.
I brew beer as we'll and I keep a yeast "bank" in the freezer.
Google washing yeast and it will lead you to thousands of sites to help you out.

[BoisBlancBoy]

Thanks BB, I'll check it out.

[bellybuster]

If you just want to save until next run, you can simply scoop some out of the bottom and toss it in the fridge in a clean mason jar. Put enough distiller water on top to cover. It'll easily keep for a few weeks that way.
Benefit of having large amount of yeast is oxygenation of your wort is not so important.

[Mr Shine]

Any time I used non-bread yeast, I'll save it (I'm cheap).

There's people who say not to do it because there could be bacteria or other nasties in your fermenter, but I take my chances and haven't been hurt yet.

This goes for fermentations that are to be distilled. If we're talking about beer, the wort is sanitized first by boiling, so there's less worry about contamination.

But like I said, I always save non-bread yeast. The best way is if you're able to squeeze out the grain from a ferment and then let the mash/wash clear in a bucket for a day or so. If you siphon off the good stuff, there's a bunch left behind (especially with AG mashes). There'll be a bunch of yeastie goodness left in the bottom of the bucket to be reused later.

Just my 2 cents.

[MitchyBourbon]

Saving any yeast after a few generations of use in a UJSSM is a bad idea. That yeast is going to be very tired, unhealthy and will likely contain other bacteria. Saving yeast from the first batch would be better but still not a great idea. UJSSM tends to ferment out at 8 % or higher.

Reusing yeast that has been exposed to alcohol beyond 6% is not the best of ideas. Yeast will become damaged and unhealthy when exposed to high alcohol levels. A better way is to collect the yeast before you use it.

Make a starter a day before you prepare your mash/wash. Re-hydrate your yeast in 1/2 liter warm water (100 F or whatever is recommended for your yeast). Next add enough DME/LME to reach an SG of 1.030. Cover loosely with foil or paper towel. Let the yeast settle, decant water off. Put half in a lightly sealed vile and refrigerate till needed. Use the rest to ferment you current mash/wash.

[BoisBlancBoy]

Mitch, while I don't doubt what you say about saving used yeast from UJSSM, but if the yeast are getting tired and unhealthy after each generation why don't you get the ill effect happening in your fermenter? I personally haven't gone past 4 generations but I have read many who have gone 4 fold more generation with no ill effects. With that said whether you save the yeast or keep re using in the fermenter what is the major difference? I can understand letting yeast set for a long period of time would be more of a problem.

Not trying to argue just trying to learn all I can.

[bellybuster]

I haven't gone past 5 gens with Uj (I think) but I have experimented with ale yeasts that have gone 10 and 12 successive ferments. This was a few years ago and part of an experiment that several brewers were also taking part in. We collectively agreed that the info that yeast will mutate after time is a myth. What we did find though was that using the entire yeast cake over and over again without actually washing the yeast was a bad thing. completely Spent ingredients can add no goodness to wort so have no reason to be there. They can only add badness or best case, nothing at all.
I would have no problem reusing a certain yeast strain indefinitely as long as it was handled correctly. Belgian monks have been washing and reusing yeast for centuries.
Bread yeast is cheap, no need to save
Yeast are living organisms and evolution takes time...lots of time.

Now, just because I know I have to...
These are the results how I saw them with my experiments. Not to be construed as factual unless you choose to do so.

[MitchyBourbon]

No problem. Alcohol is toxic to yeast and high levels and prolonged exposure will weaken a yeast culture. Using a starter as I described dose not do this. If the SG is low and you allow it continued access to oxygen the yeast will remain in an "aerobic" state. The yeast will not produce alcohol, instead they will produce more of themselves until all the sugars are used up.

Now you say you have not seen any effects... I say maybe you have. Stressed yeast will produce more of the things we don't like, like higher alcohols, fusel oils etc. The presence of these components may cause you to make tighter cuts or affect the flavor of your product. Stressed yeast also tend to ferment slow, stall or finish incompletely. If you have re-used yeast that has been stressed and also experienced slow or stalled fermentations this may have been the cause. If you had distilled something that had a lot of higher alcohols or fusel oils this may have been the causes.

If you aren't convinced, read any book on fermentation I have found everything I have said here in books.

Try this one, it's well accepted:
Yeast - The practical guide to beer fermentation.

[MitchyBourbon]

bellybutton wrote:

We collectively agreed that the info that yeast will mutate after time is a myth. 

Surely such findings must be published. Do you know of a book that supports this?

[bellybuster]

you need to reread my post Mitchy, these are my findings as well as a bunch of other beer brewers. Well documented on many sites, as well as the mutation theory.
The affect of poor yeast is much much more pronounced in beers than it is in distilling.
I guess the word "myth" was too strong. Let's just say we never got to the point where any bad effects were happening before losing interest.
Most brewers and distillers only want to increase value, saving yeast through a few generations and more if you so desire is well known to work well without any ill affect

I know of no books that support my findings. I do know however of hundreds of breweries that have been washing reusing and recultivating the same strain of yeast for decades and or centuries. Wyeast has an entire page describing how you can reuse their yeast. I am also aware that allot of these books are written by folks like us that support their own claims thru their own experiences. Look at John Palmer. he's a metallurgist that has a couple books on brewing. The one "How To Brew" is well known as "the" book on brewing. Is it 100% accurate? No.


All I am saying is... yes you can indeed save yeast, yes you indeed can reuse it at a later date without ill effect (to a point) That point of ill effect is a matter of taste and opinion and method of saving. The OP is not looking to use it 3 years later for dozens of fermentations.

[bellybuster]

saving bread yeast is a waste of time and effort. It's cheap

[Jimbo]

Saving yeast Mitchy's way is cleaner and better without a doubt. its how brewerys and distilleries do it, for good reason.

At the hobbyest level, Ive been saving yeast trub in jars forever, and never had a problem. I use very careful sterilization, and only save from boiled beer batches, not unboiled whiskey mashes. I suspect if you did have a problem, chances are far greater its from contamination and high bacterial load than nutation But thats just speculation, which I shouldnt do. Personally ive never had an issue.

As far as generations, there's really no reason to ever go beyond 3. If you save 6 starters from a run. Each of those will make 6, thats 36 runs at Gen 2 and 216 at Gen 3.

[bellybuster]

bellybutton wrote:

We collectively agreed that the info that yeast will mutate after time is a myth. 

Surely such findings must be published. Do you know of a book that supports this?

Haha "bellybutton"

[MitchyBourbon]

Bellybuster,

Please forgive me, seriously my phone did that. Sometimes I just don't pay to get all serious.

[bellybuster]

I thought it was funny.

[MitchyBourbon]

I'm glad you have a good sense of humor.

[pounsfos]

We collectively agreed that the info that yeast will mutate after time is a myth. 

personall experimence with bread yeast shows, mutation after gen 6-8 depending on conditions

Sometimes good sometimes bad
(got a honey flavour once, got a vomit flavour the other time )

I start a new gen after gen 6.....