Small Barrels vs Large pro thoughts

[wheelbreak]

So I have my first whiskey fermenting right now. It's a 60%rye 40% 6row with a tiny bit of sugar to give it a couple percent more alcohol. I want to age on oak, preferably in a barrel. Judging by what I have read on the vast amount of info on these forums I am going with a 5 liter charred medium toasted oak barrel, and will check it frequently to get the right amount of flavor. The reason I'm writing this post is, as I was looking for affordable options I came upon this article.

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2012/0 ... rspective/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It has to do with the totally unscientific experiment Buffalo Trace did awhile back. Now I saw someone posted something about this a few years back. The reason I'm linking to this article is in the comment section there is a fantastic debate/conversation that includes master distillers at a bunch of craft distilleries as well as the author of the NYTimes piece about said experiment.

Any way, I just thought it was a really good read, rivaling some of the best posts I've seen on these very forums, and thought some of you might think the same.

-WB

[Brendan]

I think: Why would Buffalo Trace say that smaller barrels were just as good even if they were?

It would just open up the market for smaller distillers to rival their product in a short amount of time...(read conspiracy theory )

[fizzix]

Unfortunately, the old link above is defunct.

My collection of small casks (3-liter to 10-liter) is growing nicely over the last year.
I like the small casks for "quick" 1-year aging, ease of filling, and above all, cost!

These are all from a vendor named Sofia's Findings on Amazon.
Minor leaks, if any, were easily resolved with soy wax.
Not as grandiose and thick as some of the barrels you guys have, but it's a start.

Barrels2.jpg

[Twisted Brick]

Hey Fizz!

You should consider putting that fine barrel collection in an enclosure (cabinet) of some sort. Since barrels breathe, in and out, they inhale the stuff other barrelsexhale, and share each other's essences, like in a real rickhouse. Kind of like, what comes around goes around...

[DetroitDIY]

I just looked up those Sofia's barrels. They actually look a bit pricey to me. I have (2) 15 gallon used bourbon barrels, use one for rum and one for non-distilled. Picked up each for $100 at the local home brew store. I also recently bought (2) 5 gallon of the Balcones new barrels. Haven't used them yet, but at $75 a piece new, I couldn't pass it up. I've also got a few of the Fusti stainless containers that I figure I can put whatever types of wood staves I may want to try for experiments.

I do like to look of all those little barrels Fizzix.

Cheers!

[The Baker]

Hey Fizz!

You should consider putting that fine barrel collection in an enclosure (cabinet) of some sort. Since barrels breathe, in and out, they inhale the stuff other barrelsexhale, and share each other's essences, like in a real rickhouse. Kind of like, what comes around goes around...

Well done, Twisted.

At the back of my mind has been a picture of a lot of pretty angels sipping, and SIPPING, AND SIPPING at my barrels...

Don't know if ageing would have such a beneficial effect without those angels, though; dunno.

Worth trying, though....

Geoff

[OtisT]

Hi Wheelbreak. I have some limited experience with small all wood barrels, both the 2L size and 5L size.

Just my personal opinion.
I think those small barrels (2L to 5L) are good for getting a lot of oak/toast/char into your spirit quickly, but they do not age the product. You will need to finish your spirit in another container of some form after a soak in those barrels.

I soaked a bourbon in a 5 L toasted and charred barrel. The recommended soak time, first use, was 4 to 6 weeks. I let mine go 7. Tons of oak/toast/char, but not much else. I could still taste the new make bourbon and little new other than oak/toast/char. Just saying it was not drinkable by the time it needed to be pulled from the mini barrel. I think if could have turned out nice if I then stuck it in a jar, maybe with small oak sticks, and let it set (venting frequently) for well more than a year, but that's not what I did. I put that bourbon into a Badmotivator barrel and after just 11 months it is pure heaven. (2 months in mini barrel, 9 months in the badmo.) Search HD for Badmo barrel to see what I am referring to.

I used the 2 L barrels for both bourbon and rum. Same experience with tons of oak/toast/char added to my new make spirit but nothing else. I put that bourbon into quart jars with small oak sticks (toasted/charred at various levels) and some of it turned out just OK after a year with lots of new sweetness, vanilla, etc. Not great yet but they are still soaking. I put a rum from these barrels in a jar with nothing else. I left head space in the jars and just vented them every month. One year on and I have a rum with a nice sweet nose but is not much for taste. Not worth drinking in my opinion.

If you can fill a 5 gallon oak barrel, that would be my recommendation for quality results with little aging work. If your volume is 1 to 3 gallons, I highly recommend a badmo style barrel for quality results with little aging work. To age in smaller volumes, you should learn to age in small vessels with wood sticks which works well but will take more knowledge, effort and time.

Otis

[MtRainier]

Otis,

Is badmo or anyone else making and selling those heads that fit in the Bain Marie vessels? I’d definitely be in the market for some.

Local homebrew shop sells once dumped 5 gallon barrels for 100 bucks mostly for winemakers, but that’s a lot of output for most home distillers.

[The Baker]

Otis,

Is badmo or anyone else making and selling those heads that fit in the Bain Marie vessels? I’d definitely be in the market for some.

Local homebrew shop sells once dumped 5 gallon barrels for 100 bucks mostly for winemakers, but that’s a lot of output for most home distillers.

I want to know if I can get the heads in or delivered to Australia!

Geoff

[Big Stogie]

I just looked up those Sofia's barrels. They actually look a bit pricey to me. I have (2) 15 gallon used bourbon barrels, use one for rum and one for non-distilled. Picked up each for $100 at the local home brew store. I also recently bought (2) 5 gallon of the Balcones new barrels. Haven't used them yet, but at $75 a piece new, I couldn't pass it up. I've also got a few of the Fusti stainless containers that I figure I can put whatever types of wood staves I may want to try for experiments.

I do like to look of all those little barrels Fizzix.

Cheers!

Send me a link to the barrel source I need a couple of the 5 and would not mind a 15 if you don’t mind thanks, the 15 would be good for a stout we want to make

[MtRainier]

http://a.co/d/5ZoknE9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow is the Sofia's Findings ones on amazon.

[MtRainier]

And the balcones ones used to be here, but they're out of stock now: https://www.homebrewing.org/Fresh-5-Gal ... _8087.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They also used to have used ones, but they're also gone.

[Twisted Brick]

And the balcones ones used to be here, but they're out of stock now: https://www.homebrewing.org/Fresh-5-Gal ... _8087.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They also used to have used ones, but they're also gone.

You can sometimes find them at their other store:

https://www.austinhomebrew.com/American ... _9023.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Same owner.

[Copperhead road]

I have 2 x 115L and 1 x 60L plus a 97L one on the way from America, big barrels are a lot of work to fill

Would like to get a couple of little 5L ones for polishing the whiskey before bottling.

[fizzix]

Hey Fizz!

You should consider putting that fine barrel collection in an enclosure (cabinet) of some sort. Since barrels breathe, in and out, they inhale the stuff other barrelsexhale, and share each other's essences, like in a real rickhouse. Kind of like, what comes around goes around...

Hey twisted that's a brilliant idea. Gonna replace that chest the barrels are sitting on anyway.
Will have to check out a cabinet.

[OtisT]

Otis,

Is badmo or anyone else making and selling those heads that fit in the Bain Marie vessels?

Not that I have hear of.

[bluefish_dist]

I have had good luck with barrel mill and Gibbs brothers. We also have once used available occasionally. Usually the Brewers take them, but occasionally they don't.

[WIski]

+1 Blufish Fish, I love the Barrel Mill and Gibbs. My experience has been the Barrel Mill give more flavor than Gibbs but both are great products. Depends on what your after and your taste preferences. YMMV

[MtRainier]

After cuts I can probably get about a gallon of 60 percent product per run of grain wash with my boiler size if I leave enough headspace to prevent puking. So 5 runs to fill a 5 gallon barrel isn’t inconceivable but still a lot of work. Fun work, though.

I have played with the configuration tool on the Gibbs order site. The “toast” is listed under wine and “char” under spirits. Those of you who order from them, do you get both toasted and charred?

[Twisted Brick]

At the back of my mind has been a picture of a lot of pretty angels sipping, and SIPPING, AND SIPPING at my barrels...

Don't know if ageing would have such a beneficial effect without those angels, though; dunno.

Worth trying, though....

Geoff

https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-scie ... els-share/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This article tells me the effect that angels have on aging is a moving target. All barrels respire differently, based on a number of factors, such as tightness of grain, tightness of the cooperage, amount of airflow surrounding the barrels (hear that Fizz?) and ambient temperatures. Another aspect I'm intrigued about is where I read that a barrel's ABV can lower or raise over the course of its aging time, obviously depending on the relative percentage of water that respires from the barrel. I'll try to dig that article out.

From my limited experience, I am finding that while aging (actual maturation of the spirit) and oaking work hand-in-hand, they also work independently, and it is the distiller's job to get both of those processes to hopefully finish at the same time. Like OtisT mentioned, smaller barrels can get a lot of oak into a spirit fast, but the maturation of the spirit can and usually does take much longer.

[bluefish_dist]

After cuts I can probably get about a gallon of 60 percent product per run of grain wash with my boiler size if I leave enough headspace to prevent puking. So 5 runs to fill a 5 gallon barrel isn’t inconceivable but still a lot of work. Fun work, though.

I have played with the configuration tool on the Gibbs order site. The “toast” is listed under wine and “char” under spirits. Those of you who order from them, do you get both toasted and charred?

Yes, I have both toast and char. The toast currently has rum in it and it is getting a very rum profile. Lots of caramel and vanilla. The char gives the rum a more whiskey flavor, brings in some smoke. The Gibbs do oak more slowly than the barrel mill, but that could be good if you are going to age it for a long time. I have a scotch style that is going to be in the barrel for a while and it's in a Gibbs. I also am putting a tequila in a toasted Gibbs.

[MtRainier]

Yes, I have both toast and char. The toast currently has rum in it and it is getting a very rum profile. Lots of caramel and vanilla. The char gives the rum a more whiskey flavor, brings in some smoke. The Gibbs do oak more slowly than the barrel mill, but that could be good if you are going to age it for a long time. I have a scotch style that is going to be in the barrel for a while and it's in a Gibbs. I also am putting a tequila in a toasted Gibbs.

I meant for your whiskey do you order toast and char simultaneously in one barrel? From their production process it sounds like all of the staves get toasted to some extent before assembly and then the "toast" barrels get a separate uniform toast level while the "char" barrels get an interior char. However, it looked like on their order page you could select both toast and char simultaneously on one barrel.

Seems like the slower, southern oak could help with a more even oak/age ratio on a small barrel so maybe they're the way to go for the smaller sizes.

[fizzix]

https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-scie ... els-share/
This article tells me the effect that angels have on aging is a moving target. All barrels respire differently, based on a number of factors, such as tightness of grain,
tightness of the cooperage, amount of airflow surrounding the barrels (hear that Fizz?).

Twisted, I owe you another drink.
That article, the moles and humidity and airflow, is about the best thing I've read in a while.
That should be mandatory reading!

[DetroitDIY]

[/quote]
Send me a link to the barrel source I need a couple of the 5 and would not mind a 15 if you don’t mind thanks, the 15 would be good for a stout we want to make[/quote]

Hey Stogie,

As others have already replied, the 5 gals are through AIH and AustinHomebrewing... essentially the same company. And the 15 gals dumped bourbon barrels I picked up AIH, but I think they have these more sporadically. I PM'ed you a few details on how to cut costs on this purchase.

[Twisted Brick]

Twisted, I owe you another drink.

You're on! (I got the next round...)

[bluefish_dist]

I meant for your whiskey do you order toast and char simultaneously in one barrel? From their production process it sounds like all of the staves get toasted to some extent before assembly and then the "toast" barrels get a separate uniform toast level while the "char" barrels get an interior char. However, it looked like on their order page you could select both toast and char simultaneously on one barrel.

Seems like the slower, southern oak could help with a more even oak/age ratio on a small barrel so maybe they're the way to go for the smaller sizes.[/quote]

I have heard of cooperages doing a toast then char, but I don't know if Gibbs does. Give them a call, they will answer the phone and when I have talked to them they have been good to work with. I have been told the difference is that Gibbs doesn't char the heads. I have not verified this. This gives less char area for the same size barrel. That can be good for spirits that need more time in a barrel.

For more oak I prefer the McGinnis barrels that I use, but they are not selling at retail. I believe barrel mill is a similar profile and have a test barrel aging now to verify.

[MtRainier]

Thanks for the extra info. I'm just starting malt whiskey runs now and the majority of the good flavor comes from aging which is harder to figure out than ferment and distill.

[WIski]

Bluefish Wrote'
I have been told the difference is that Gibbs doesn't char the heads. I have not verified this.

I have verified this. When I spoke to them on the phone they told me their heads are not toasted or charred. And yes you can keep your new make in them longer than the Barrel Mill barrels because of this. Pros and cons to both barrels. It all depends on what you like and what you want to do as far as ageing. It is great to have options though!! YMMV