Think like a yeast!

These little beasts do all the hard work. Share how to keep 'em happy and working hard.

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Galeoturpis
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Think like a yeast!

Post by Galeoturpis »

 A lot of the advice given here at HD is to follow a recipe that has been stumbled upon by chance. The wine industry has done a lot of research on yeast and we should pay heed to it. 
I do ferments of 6 kg of sugar in a final volume of 24 litres.(250 mg/ml)
A yeast is a eukaryote (i.e. has mitochondria) but also has a tough chitin cell wall (like a lobster). It is 90% water and the 10% dry weight is roughly half protein /half carbohydrate. About a third of the protein is stored as free amino acids (i.e. available for re-use by another yeast). 
On average , nitrogen is 16% of he weight of any protein (1/6 th).

A growth medium will grow 2-3 g/litre (dry weight) of yeast so in a 25 litre bucket , I am growing a 50-75g yeast (dry weight) which is about 500-750g or an armored jellyfish about the size of a squirrel. 

What do I need to grow such a pet?
1) carbohydrate, sugar, treated starch
2) protein - because of the cell wall yeasts can only absorb ammonia or amino acids not larger proteins. 
Ammonia can be sourced via sulphate of ammonia (from the garden shop) or the more pure DAP (diammonium phosphate) which is 21% nitrogen.  So one gram a litre of DAP supplies 200 mg/litre of nitrogen. 
The yeast assimilable nitrogen (YAN) from dead yeast is 3-5%. 

Below 150 mg/ litre nitrogen , one gets a stuck ferment and you can put in as much as 500 mg/l but get many more esters and ethyl acetate. The optimal amount of nitrogen (YAN) for a 6 kg sugar wash is 250 mg/l. 
I put in 50- 75 g of (dead) brewers yeast (3-5% of 2-3 g/l YAN or 60-150mg/l nitrogen) -plus 12-24 g DAP (100-200 mg/l N).
If my lobster jellyfish yeast only has 5-7.5 g of nitrogen in it, why do we need 5 times as much nitrogen in the water. Well survival of the fittest. The early generation yeasts die and their proteins are unusable. This is also why you should only put half of the nutrient in at the start and wait until 1/3 sugar depletion (about 12-24 hours) before adding the second half. 

3) fat is only 2% of the yeasts weight but is not unimportant. A strong cell membrane prevents rupture by concentrated alcohol especially if going for an 18% alcohol brew. Ergosterol is too expensive to buy but a dietary supplement choline which is a precursor is cheap and only a quarter of a gram is enough. However unsaturated fat decreases ethyl ester formation so perhaps I should add a gram of butter next time. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223249/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

4) minerals. The most prevalent ion is potassium so if using sugar, you should add at least 3g of KCl to achieve an intracellular concentration of 150 mol/l. 
Epsom salts 1.5 g.  Calcium- add some gypsum or chalk. There are enough minerals in a vitamin tablet to supply the yeast. For optimal minerals, 50-75 g dead yeast is pretty good. 
Zinc needs to be between 0.4 - 1 ppm ( mg/l)  (<0.05 or > 10 is toxic)

5) vitamins - again dead brewers yeast is cheap and has everything. Many vitamin tablets lack things like folate because it would make the tablet too big (which means I have to add Vegemite as well!) There's no disadvantage adding too many vitamins to a wash that you are going to distil. It's not like wine. 

6) sulphur - apparently the pantothenate (vitamin b5) : YAN ratio is important to prevent off smells. Keep the pantothenate levels above 500 mcg/l or 12 mg a batch which is a twentieth of a pantothenate tablet but 50% more pantothenate than in one my vitamin tablets.  Low pantothenate also means low fats and a weak cell wall. Tomato paste is rich in B5.
Selenium - all fungi accumulate this trace element possibly as a defense mechanism but it is used in sulfur metabolism. I grate in a brazil nut into my wash just to be sure. 

7) pH - the science for this in mycology is woeful and is just waiting for a decent phd project. Citric acid calculators on the web suggest adding 0.2 g of citric acid and yet turbo put 45g of the stuff in their batch. Citric acid can be converted to acetic acid (vingar). In human physiology, pH is calculated using a fourth order quadratic polynomial according to the Stewart hypothesis using concentrations of strong ions ( sodium, potassium, magnesium etc) and balanced by proteins, phosphates and sulphates. Um, maybe, er follow a recipe?
http://www.anaesthetist.com/mnm/wine/Findex.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

8) temperature 30 degrees Celsius is ideal for the lab but higher temperatures make more esters etc.

In laboratory conditions a yeast can convert its own body weight of sugar to alcohol every minute so my armored jellyfish could chew up the 6kg of sugar in about two hours. We don't want laboratory conditions because a high YAN makes nasty flavours but don't be too afraid of a fast ferment if you've put the right stuff in at the right time. Over a week implies you're running the wash with a vitamin or mineral deficiency or too cold.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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:?: That's a whole lot of information that'll take me a bit to digest so in the meantime, can ya skin grizz, pilgrim?

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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Skin that one pilgrum, and I'll get you another one!

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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by Galeoturpis »

Well thank you Bear Claw Chris Lapp. My take home message is feed your squirrel-sized lobster jellyfish enough greens and maybe a brazil nut. You will get less esters (but maybe more Fusel oils) if you put in a fish oil capsule or ml of fresh flax oil, 2 ml of sunflower oil and 0.3 ml of olive oil.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? :idea:

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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by RevSpaminator »

Let's step out of the lab now and back into the real world. What natural fermentables provide the optimal diet for the "armored jellyfish"?
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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T-Pee wrote::?: That's a whole lot of information that'll take me a bit to digest so in the meantime, can ya skin grizz, pilgrim?

tp
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Think like a yeast - Leave your sweet natural fermentables natural. Yeast werent designed in a lab and are perfectly happy in the natural environments they spent millions of years evolving with. They dont need a chemistry set to be happy. Processed sugar is lab made and not natural. As is urea for yeast nutrients. Y'all know what urea is right. Ive not seen a shred of evidence to suggest cows need to first piss on grapes or apples before they'll ferment properly, why would you pour that shite in your drink. Malt can be mashed, fermented and run as is, no nothing needed. High raw grain might need a little coercion to get the pH right but thats about it. Apples, nothing needed press em and let it run. 20 years and not a stuck ferment. Ever
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Ok. I thought it was me an' I was bein' polite dancing the issue while wondering just whatinell he was getting at. :shifty:

tp (not alone in the world after all)
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Jimbo wrote:And temperatures of 30C do NOT in fact work very well, in lab or otherwise, with most yeasts that are worth a shit, thats too hot. bla bla. whatever.
I agree with you completely Jimbo (on the academic wank), but this surprised me...I've always thought and found the sweet spot for my whiskey distilling yeasts around the 30 degrees Celsius mark, as recommended by the manufacturer. Alternatively, rum has been recommended higher at 35C for ester production, while fruit and neutral recommended much lower at 24-26 deg C. That's what I've been working with, maybe I need to re-evaluate?
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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different strains of yeasts require different temps for optimin production, most of the sugar/bread yeasts I have come across seem to work best between 28 and 32 degrees c and gain specific yeasts a bit less 24 to 28'c, lager yeasts much lower of cause :thumbup:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by Jimbo »

yeah you guys are right bakers yeast and distillers yeast like 80F 30C I was just being grumpy. The ale and wine yeasts I use like 68

I did say 'most' yeasts
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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by googe »

I found this interesting and a good write up, I thought id learnt something about yeast, is it incorrect?.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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I would like to re-state that personally I am dead against any recipe that includes adding any form of urea. I know people disagree and will say that the danger of ingesting urea is over stated and they are right but the thing is when you ferment with urea it will produce some quite dangerous compounds, (you can like the fact that its very cheap and works well but dangerous is dangerous). Here is a link from one company explaining why they have discontinued selling it as a yeast nutrient Link
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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I deleted my rant.while I don't agree with doing unnatural ferments and pumping them full of oddities to make them run the write up is good and his intentions are good and we shouldn't discourage people bringing good science into this hobby. I think his first sentence just tee'd me up
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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I wouldn't have deleted it not all the statements are correct and the sentiment most certainly is not. the recipes for the most part are not stubbled across by some flukey chance, they are in fact developed by many yrs of trail, error and research in the same way anything from medicine to food to good booze are developed. Chemical engineering don't mean didly squat if not backed up by practical experimentation, with some of the condescending sentiment ignored it is a good write up :thumbup:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by googe »

Thanks jimbo/crow, I get a bit lost with his type of knowledge, so I need to know who's speaking shit and who's.not lol.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Jimbo wrote:I deleted my rant.
Aww, I liked it :ebiggrin:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Thankyou Jimbo for taking the bait. My opening statement was not meant to denigrate the contributions made here but rather stimulate conversation and skepticism. I have always been a stirrer. There is more to yeast than just whisky- there's wine, beer, mead, cheese, bread etc. As far as temperature goes, the real question is do you want esters (heads and aromas) or Fusel oils (tails and poisons). Esters are made by conversion of Fusel oils at higher temperatures, high nitrogen etc. as I have a reflux still and use activated carbon and am presently just trying to work out how to make a good neutral spirit, I don't want esters but rum and whisky without them- perish the thought. Optimal temperature for low ester production is probably below 18 C.
My approach is to analyze the recipes so if something goes wrong, I can correct it next time ( having had some monumental stuff-ups as you could read on my introductory post.)
I analysed Tater's bird watcher recipe using data from Nutritiondata.self.com.

Taters birdwatchers recipe
80 liter wash. 
3 cups tomato paste
Juice 3 lemons
18 kg sugar
225 grams fresh regular bakers yeast. 

Sugar 18kg  225mg/l of sugar should get a potential alcohol about 13%
Protein- nitrogen  68mg/l but very little would be YAN so no yeast would multiply.
Yeast 2.8g/ l - a high amount of yeast so if you've bought a dud batch your wash is buggered.
Pantothenate 15 mcg/l This surprised me as I thought the tomato paste was all about giving enough B5 to optimism the carbon:nitrogen ratio and one should aim for 500mcg/l.
K 190 mmol/l, magnesium 0.2 mmol/l (but if taken up by the yeast intracellular of 6 mmol/l), phosphorus 0.26 mmol/l (but intracellular 9mmol/l so a nice bit of added energy), zinc 0.6 mg/l so that's fine and within the boundaries.
There is enough choline and selenium to double the amount already in the yeast.

So bird watchers works fine if you've got good yeast but isn't capable of adapting to local conditions. There is no selection of the fittest yeasts. However on the good side, because the yeast isn't multiplying, there is no fatty acid synthesis and hence less fusels and esters.
Thankyou all for reading and please rip into my assumptions more!
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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at 13% you have stressed your yeast to the max, if you want a good neutral dial that sugar way down. I use 10 kgs in 70 ltrs so if I were you I would look at no more than 12 kgs tops in that wash :thumbup:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Galeo, sounds like you could benefit by putting the calculator and paper analysis away and start doing some real runs. If youre after a nice drink, and happy yeast, they (yeast) want natural ferments full of natural nutrients, careful temperature (low), good oxygenation, low gravity (see crows comment), proper pH (practically automatic with natural fruits and malted grains). Its about that simple.

But if youre a chemist (clearly) who enjoys the challenge of starting with a handicapped product (sugar) and jumping through hoops to make it sorta not suck, more power to you, Thats a fun challenge in itself Im sure. But with that much energy and thought and science, why not ferment up some grain (its cheaper than sugar at 10 bucks for 50 lbs) and make a superior natural product?

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Re: Think like a yeast!

Post by Tap »

Brendan wrote:
Jimbo wrote:I deleted my rant.
Aww, I liked it :ebiggrin:
Aww, I missed it. :crazy:

I like the complex scientific analysis ... But the natural process will often produce better results.

It's the same with all edibles...

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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Ultimately the neutrality of a spirit comes from the post distillation process. Otherwise, even a Vodka distilled to 96% multiple times will contain flavors that still act as a thorn in its side. It does not matter how little or many esters are produced during fermentation.

A distillery I work with occasionally ferments to 16% alcohol at a grand total of 36 degrees CELSIUS. The ferment takes less than 72 hours to complete. I suspect if he were to ferment to only 8% he could have it done in less than 24, but then it becomes an energy use issue. After running it through two distillation columns and receiving close to 96.6% purity, his product is similar more to a White Whiskey. It tastes both of the extreme fruitiness of fermenting at such a high temperature and the mash source. It is only when chilled to some 3 degrees celcius and filtered through carbon that it becomes a truly neutral, soft spirit with relatively little flavor and only a mild aroma.

The micromanaging of a mash to be made into a truly neutral spirit is a pointless pursuit. If you are going to micromanage a fermentation, do it in order to make an excellent Whiskey or Rum instead!
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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well no not really post distillation amelioration through filtering ect is what's colloquially referred to as polishing a turd. A good neutral ferment with a good wash ran properly with a good reflux still will get you a neutral or a slightly off neutral vodka if you use a recipe like a grain recipe for that purpose :thumbup:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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The micromanaging of a mash to be made into a truly neutral spirit is a pointless pursuit. If you are going to micromanage a fermentation, do it in order to make an excellent Whiskey or Rum instead!
I agree (now after much research) but science is really just a catalogue of other people's stuff ups and I am sure to have many of my own on the way so why repeat others?
Jimbo, no I'm not a chemist. I will get onto grains soon enough and your post has encouraged me to read a lot about barley today. So many new concepts -colour, kolbach index, wort fermentability, etc. I thought that I would analyse one of your recipes.
Jumbos single malt ag recipe
87 litres water
4 teaspoons gypsum
18 kg milled malt barley
40 g yeast

Analysis

FAN 200-220 mg/l (free amino nitrogen which is like YAN) a bit high cf. whisky distillers amount of 150.
Sugar  162mg/l  potential alcohol 8% (probably less unless you are a perfect masher)
Yeast goal 170- 260g
I found an article that said most barley is deficient in the following.
https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1908 ... techniques" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Thiamine  62mcg/l (> 600 mcg/l) 10 times too low but it could be in the husks which are excluded for human consumption. 
Pantothenate 124 mcg/l (> 500 mcg/l)
Zinc 0.43mg/l (0.4- 1)
Biotin 37 mcg/l  (> 5)
Phosphorus 62 mg/l (intracellular concentration of po4 = 330/31 /2.6= 4.1 mmol/l) bit low 
Aim 0.3 - 1.3g/100g of yeast or 0.5- 3.5 g po4 or 0.6-5g dap

Pantothenate deficiency causes more h2s ( hydrogen sulfide -rotten eggs), acetic acid (vinegar) and glycerol but with no deficiency you get more sweet esters. A thiamine deficiency causes slow growth and sulphur dioxides.
I would suggest adding a vitamin tablet or dead brewers yeast plus some DAP to speed the ferment (it should be kept slow by lack of nitrogen/ temperature) not vitamin deficiency. Don't take my advice on an 87 litre ferment but rather do your own research or try a small test batch.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Jimbo wrote:But if youre a chemist (clearly) who enjoys the challenge of starting with a handicapped product (sugar) and jumping through hoops to make it sorta not suck, more power to you, Thats a fun challenge in itself Im sure. But with that much energy and thought and science, why not ferment up some grain (its cheaper than sugar at 10 bucks for 50 lbs) and make a superior natural product?
What are you talking about? He's not suggesting a sugar wash, he's analyzing what nutrients the yeast will get from a "Tried and True" recipe.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Jimbo is simply suggesting not to use chemical nutrients. There are always other options. From personal experience, I have to agree with that point.

Plus, who wants new members thinking they need a laboratory to ferment a good drop? I haphazardly rinse my screw tops out in between and don't bother with airlocks. My pump house where I ferment, has a dirt floor. Despite my unsterile conditions the recipes I do from the tried and true work exactly as advertised.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge other people's hard work and recipes... They are not stumbled upon by chance, and suggesting that they are is completely offensive to anyone with a recipe in there.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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The main problem I have with this entire thread is Galeo is giving bad advice, with no practical experience to back it up, so no idea at all if what he is saying will really have the result he thinks. My experience with booksmart people is they are never half as smart as they think they are, and when people follow them blindly they make the mistakes the person dishing the advice should have made first before ever opening his mouth.

Galeo, you analyzed one of my recipes and said "I would suggest adding a vitamin tablet or dead brewers yeast plus some DAP to speed the ferment because the chemical structure of my mash will produce Hydrogen Sulfide and Sulpher Dioxide. Well, they do not. Never have. In more runs than I can even count. And i dont want to speed up fermentation, finishing in a week allows esters to be produced slowly with predicatable results particularly in the last few days of ferment. The recipe you picked is a single malt. Probably the most stable grain mash possible, the foundation of all beers in addition to Scotches and many other whiskies, which never in millenia have needed DAP or vitamins, or additions of dead brewers yeasts.

Again, Galeo, start doing some runs. Test your theories, marry up practical experience with what you think you know. Until then, please stop giving advice or Ill start deleting your advice (Im a moderator tasked with ensuring BS isint spewed that will mislead people). If you want to post facts about yeast, go ahead. Interesting stuff, I do lots of research myself. But dont give advice. Yet. Youre not qualified.

Regarding your statement about recipes being stumbled on by chance. Thats an obnoxious ignorant statement. The recipes you find in T&T, and many others, are the result of hard work over many many runs by folks who have been at this for many years and know, through research AND practical experience, what really makes yeast happy. These recipes are dialed in carefully until they are repeatable with good results. Then they are tested by folks at HD, and only when they too have repeatable good results do the recipes find their way to the T&T.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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QFTR and because THIS is good advice:
The main problem I have with this entire thread is Galeo is giving bad advice, with no practical experience to back it up, so no idea at all if what he is saying will really have the result he thinks. My experience with booksmart people is they are never half as smart as they think they are, and when people follow them blindly they make the mistakes the person dishing the advice should have made first before ever opening his mouth.

Galeo, you analyzed one of my recipes and said "I would suggest adding a vitamin tablet or dead brewers yeast plus some DAP to speed the ferment because the chemical structure of my mash will produce Hydrogen Sulfide and Sulpher Dioxide. Well, they do not. Never have. In more runs than I can even count. And i dont want to speed up fermentation, finishing in a week allows esters to be produced slowly with predicatable results particularly in the last few days of ferment. The recipe you picked is a single malt. Probably the most stable grain mash possible, the foundation of all beers in addition to Scotches and many other whiskies, which never in millenia have needed DAP or vitamins, or additions of dead brewers yeasts.

Again, Galeo, start doing some runs. Test your theories, marry up practical experience with what you think you know. Until then, please stop giving advice or Ill start deleting your advice (Im a moderator tasked with ensuring BS isint spewed that will mislead people). If you want to post facts about yeast, go ahead. Interesting stuff, I do lots of research myself. But dont give advice. Yet. Youre not qualified.

Regarding your statement about recipes being stumbled on by chance. Thats an obnoxious ignorant statement. The recipes you find in T&T, and many others, are the result of hard work over many many runs by folks who have been at this for many years and know, through research AND practical experience, what really makes yeast happy. These recipes are dialed in carefully until they are repeatable with good results. Then they are tested by folks at HD, and only when they too have repeatable good results do the recipes find their way to the T&T.
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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Galeo, you're keen and that's good...take Jimbo's advice and get plenty of runs under your belt and you'll be improving your spirits in no time.

As an engineer with a trade background, I see it all too often where the guys come out of uni touting some formulas they could use to solve a problem, only to look foolish and find that a little experience and technical common sense was all that was needed. Forget the math for now, and the molecular structure of each yeast cell, and start distilling! :thumbup:

It's not just science, it's an art/craft too :wink:
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Re: Think like a yeast!

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thecroweater wrote:well no not really post distillation amelioration through filtering ect is what's colloquially referred to as polishing a turd. A good neutral ferment with a good wash ran properly with a good reflux still will get you a neutral or a slightly off neutral vodka if you use a recipe like a grain recipe for that purpose :thumbup:
You can, but it ends up being a time efficiency issue. You could use a high pitch rate, perfect nutrients, a low temperature, just the right yeast, and ferment for two weeks, or ferment in very little time and ultimately gain the same result anyway due to filtering and proper cuts.

The fact is, even a very well distilled, very well fermented mash will still produce a Vodka that has flavor of the mash source no matter what you do. No distillation exists in an ideal world where you can simply obtain pure ethanol. That's why Vodka is filtered at commercial distilleries, they know that consumers prefer it as a neutral spirit that disappears into your drink.

There are indeed more microdistilleries now who have decided to minimize or forfeit the process and their Vodka does certainly taste good, but it toes the line of what Vodka is supposed to be by definition by both the government and the common consumer, who expects a certain product when they shell out their money.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
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