Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

[Propaniac]

I am trying to figure out how money per gallon it costs to make ethanol. After doing some research, it came out to almost $10/gallon...

30lbs sugar@$0.50/lb = $15
15 gallons water - $0
Yeast - $5

I was having a hard time finding a definitive rule about how much yeast to use. I saw a website say 6 grams per gallon, but then I also saw this website say 100 grams per 5 gallons if flavor isn't a factor. I'll just say $5 until I know for sure. If anyone could help me clear up my yeast confusion I would appreciate it.

So that means to make 15 gallons of 14% ABV wash would cost $20. According to my calculations, that should put out around 2 gallons of 90+% ethanol. That means it costs $10/gallon!?

Any help would really be appreciated. I would love to make ethanol fuel, but not if it's gonna cost $10/gallon.

[NZChris]

On top of that is the cost of the energy to distill it. If you burned your alcohol to heat your still, you would likely burn more than you made.

[DAD300]

You're close...there are threads here describing dollars and time.

Yeast would be less than $3usd but could be cheaper if you reuse it or grow your own from a starter.

Add power and equipment costs...

TA DA... as fuel it does not pay. It only pays the big boys because OUR tax dollars subsidize every bit of the process.

But for drink. The average is a bit more than your $10/gal. For perspective only, let's say it was $20usd a gallon of 90%. Now, remember that's 2 gallons of 45% drink or 10-fifths, so $2 usd a fifth.

[Jimbo]

Here's a nice cost related factoid. Its cheaper to make AG spirits than sugarheads.

Corn is about $0.20 a lb. and makes 30 PPG roughly, in our processes here. Sugar is about $0.50/lb and makes 46 PPG.

(PPG = points of gravity per pound per gallon)

[Prairiepiss]

Yes making your own fuel is not worth the effort. Unless you have an abundant free supply of fermentable sugar.

Not to mention ethanol is 20% less efficient then gasoline.

And actually 15 gal at 14% would have 2.1 gal of 100% ABV alcohol in it. That doesn't mean you will recover all the alcohol. So more like 1.75 gal of burnable alcohol. Maybe?

And water is not free. It costs something. Electricity or time to pump it. Or whatever.

I would also like to know where to get sugar for .50 a pound? Cheapest I have found it is .60 a pound.

And fuel to run the still. It ain't cheap. And they say it takes 2/3rds what you make to run the still to make it?
Wood heat cost at least the time to cut it down and move it.
Gas propane or natural gas cost money.
Solar well haven't seen an efficient setup yet?
Electric costs money. And it would take a lot of solar power to run a still. Trust me I wish I could run mine on electric. But now that I'm off grid. I can not.

Oh don't forget about the cooling water needed to run a reflux still. That can produce fuel ABV. Even if you are using a circulating system. You still need a pump and something to run it.

And don't forget your time. Yes it costs you money. A 15 gal ferment will take a couple hours of your time. And to distill it to an ABV needed for fuel. With the most common stills available. Will take you anywhere from 6 to 15 hours. The 6 being with a expensive still. So factor in the cost of that still. While you are at it. You can't make fuel safely with a pot still. So you need to consider one full day of distilling related tasks.

Give up on the fuel making. It ain't worth it. Make some good drink. It is worth it.

Posting while Jimbo was.

Yes Jimbo is correct AG is cheaper. But it also adds another days worth of work. For a 15 gal batch. And more equipment to buy. Approx?

[Bob Loblaw]

Surpised nobody has even mentioned the capital cost of building a still. A still that will produce fuel-grade ethanol is not just a simple old pot.

[NZChris]

You could keep your costs down a bit by growing and hand harvesting your own cane next to your crusher and still and powering it all with a bagasse fired boiler.

[Propaniac]

Thanks for the replies so far. At first I was excited, but that's because I had bad info. At least I know now that it's a waste of time. Is there any hope though? Can you get cheaper sugar that's not suitable for human consumption or something? At least corn is a possibility...

As far as the sugar for $0.50/lb, that's how much it is at my local Costco.

I appreciate the replies so far, and if anyone has any other suggestions about making it cheaper I'm all ears. It's too bad that it's so expensive to make. Engines run cooler and cleaner on it and it's higher octane, so it adds some HP. Plus if you break down at least you've got some whiskey

[Prairiepiss]

I appreciate the replies so far, and if anyone has any other suggestions about making it cheaper I'm all ears. It's too bad that it's so expensive to make. Engines run cooler and cleaner on it and it's higher octane, so it adds some HP. Plus if you break down at least you've got some whiskey

I think you are still misinformed. While this info is kinda true. The temp difference in ethanol and gas isn't that much. Methanol is a different story. And it doesn't actually have an octane rating. And it takes 20% more ethanol to get the same as gas. You may be able to get more HP from it. But you will need to use much more of it.

Only way to make it cheaper. Is if you can find a free supply. I think I already said that. It's a worthless cause for now. And if the gas prices do get high enough to maybe make it feasible. The sugar prices will have increased because the gas prices have increased.

[Jimbo]

E85 fuel, and all the ethanol hype for fuel is horse crap. As P says its ONLY available because our govt is subsidizing corn AND fuel from corn. Why, I dunno, but surely because someone blew someone and has friends in the right place to ensure their pockets stay fully lined. Because thats how our corrupt govt runs.

[Halfbaked]

Have you noticed in the past 10 year that your vehicle is getting not as good a gas milage. Wonder why? Ethanol. It also eats your seals up in your vehicle. I think it was hinted around but also e85 gets less gas mpg. You need an engine that is designed for E85. Does it cost that much to make ethanol? You are only looking at front end costs. There are back end costs like 20% (+) less mpg than strait gas or ruining your seals on older model vehicles (repair costs).

[Jimbo]

Correct. BS gooberment hype. Here's the results from a careful test someone published


Gas Result:From San Diego to Las Vegas and back, we used 36.5 gallons of regular gasoline and achieved an average fuel economy of 18.3 mpg.

Gas Cost: We spent $124.66 for gasoline for the trip. The average pump price was $3.42 per gallon.

E85 Result: From San Diego to Las Vegas and back we used 50 gallons of E85 and achieved an average fuel economy of 13.5 mpg.

E85 Cost: We spent $154.29 on E85 for the trip. The average pump price was $3.09 per gallon

Gas/E85 difference: The fuel economy of our Tahoe on E85, under these conditions, was 26.5 percent worse than it was when running on gas.

[Propaniac]

Dang, I wasn't aware of all that. I guess that's the end of that. Just for the heck of it though, what's the cheapest source of sugar? Also, if you use corn, do you also have to use sugar, or just corn. I apologize if these are stupid questions, but I tried to search and wasn't seeing much. The way you search for stuff on this forum is pretty confusing though.

[Jimbo]

Corn is sugar, after you mash it with malt (enzymes). Lots here on that process.

[cob]

Dang, I wasn't aware of all that. I guess that's the end of that. Just for the heck of it though, what's the cheapest source of sugar? Also, if you use corn, do you also have to use sugar, or just corn. I apologize if these are stupid questions, but I tried to search and wasn't seeing much. The way you search for stuff on this forum is pretty confusing though.

are you actualy wanting to make ethanol for fuel? or other reasons?

the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.

much cheaper to buy it for fuel.

[Propaniac]

Mostly for fuel... I really want to build a bok still, but I just can't justify it if most of what I make goes to waste, and costs a fortune in the process. I guess making it, for other reasons, is the only way it's worth it. Unless I wake up tomorrow with a dump truck full of sugar in my driveway.

[Halfbaked]

Gas is made to go in your gas tank. Ethanol is made to go down your pie hole in your tank.

[Jimbo]

poetic baked

[S-Cackalacky]

All the other reasons not to make it aside - are you willing to make the production of ethanol a full time job? Would probably take a week, or so, of full time stillin' to produce enough to fill a 26 gallon gas tank. And, that doesn't include tracking down and gathering copious amounts of fermentable materials, or the labor required to put together the ferments and dispose of the mess. There are many other logistical reasons NOT to pursue it.

[Jimbo]

There's an ethanol plant Ive passed in Ill,. huge ass facility, can smell yeast for miles when coming up on it. I checked their website. Some very interesting info

One Earth Energy uses about 39 million bushels of corn annually from producers within a 50-mile radius to meet its capacity production of 100 million gallons of ethanol.

The plant has 50 full-time employees and also produces 320,000 tons of distillers’ dried grain with solubles. Two years ago, it added back-end oil separation capabilities and now produces 2 million pounds of corn oil from locally-grown corn.

Ethanol production efficiency has improved to the point where a bushel of corn (56 lbs) will produce 2.8 gallons of ethanol and 15 to 16 pounds of DDGS for livestock feed.

Wow, my mashing and fermenting gives me about a fifth of 90 pr for every 4 lbs. Thats 60% cuts, so make that 42 oz without cuts, or 19 oz of 100% ethanol. Thats 266 oz from a bushel. HEY thats not bad!!! I get 2.1 gal per bushel, and they get 2.8 with high tech shit up the wazoo.

Here the site http://agrinews-pubs.com/Content/News/L ... /8/6/10054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[SoMo]

Jimbo do you factor man hours and energy consumption, or is that just x=y in material usage only.
If ones goal is to make cheap alcohol for any use, it ain't cheap. Grain, sugar, yeast, water, energies, fermenters, strainers, coolers, chillers, stills, boilers, hoses, clamps, sanitizer, and tons of man hours. I'm sure I left out something's, but cheap it ain't. Pleasure 100% wouldn't quit for nothing.

[Jimbo]

No man, if I factored my time in, and equipment, and power, etc these bottles of bourbon would cost me far more than I care to know about. Ignorance is bliss.... But materials alone, its under $2 for a bottle of bourbon! I like that.

You know my position on ethanol for fuel, I posted it below, its nonsense. Its stunning that this plant makes 100 million gallons of ethanol a year tho I wonder how many that factory hooch plant in Indiana makes (MGP).

[wv_cooker]

This is a neat discussion at least. I own 3 race cars and have been studying E85 ethanol for some time now. As Jimbo and many have stated it is not in any way feasible for regular consumption in your everyday vehicle. not only are the costs to manufacture yourself about triple regular gas as stated by S-Cack you would be making fuel 24 - 7 just to travel around town.

Now for the race cars I have found a method of breaking down the lignin's in sawdust into fermentable sugars and I could get all the free sawdust that I wanted. However it takes sulfuric acid to break down the lignin's into sugar. Sulfuric acid is expensive and dangerous to use. You can save your acid by redistilling it after you have finished retrieving the ethanol but again another process which takes time and money.

As for ethanol taking 20% more or being 20% less efficient it is more like 30% to achieve the horsepower for race conditions. Now methanol is sold as racing alcohol but is damaging to the engine do to making too much water as the engine cools down. By the same token ethanol also contains 3.5 % water by the simple fact you cannot distill it pure in a home or shop environment. water is not good for bearings, rings and such. So to run ethanol you have to run some pretty high dollar filters to control damage from water content.

After you go through all the calculations of time, money, and problems related to making ethanol from a totally free source you find out that you can buy E85 for just over 2 dollars and something per gallon. So being the redneck backwoods hillbilly I am, and as much as I wanted to run our cars on moonshine just for the sake of being a redneck. It is far more cost effective to purchase e85 and really much simpler and easier on our engines just to run 7 dollar a gallon race fuel. Hope this helps!

[SoMo]

No man, if I factored my time in, and equipment, and power, etc these bottles of bourbon would cost me far more than I care to know about. Ignorance is bliss.... But materials alone, its under $2 for a bottle of bourbon! I like that.

You know my position on ethanol for fuel, I posted it below, its nonsense. Its stunning that this plant makes 100 million gallons of ethanol a year tho I wonder how many that factory hooch plant in Indiana makes (MGP).

I bet the hooch plant has a smaller ecological foot print to say the least. We have a flex fuel vehicle, there really is a loss on using e85 over regular unleaded it's not worth the few cents difference in price. Now I have heard of incentives tax breaks etc for using it but nothing has come to fruition. While on this soap box Americas production of subsidized corn below cost of production has a direct correlation to the mass immigration of many middle and South American farmers who can't grow corn as cheaply as we do causing them to lose their only source of income, searching for a way to make a living for their families v

[Jimbo]

The worst thing subsidized corn is doing to us is KILLING US. Subsidized corn has made processed corn oil, and HFCS so cheap it has become ubiquitous in ALL our foods. Its subsidized because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA. And grain is the base of our food pyramid because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA, it has no business in our food pyramid, its not a paleolithic food like vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish/meat. At the turn of the twentieth century diabetes rates were low, cardiovascular disease was almost unheard of and obesity rates were a tiny fraction of what we're suffering today. Lard and butter were the darlings of the home cook, the primary source of fat in the diet. This was before the processed vegetable oil industry skyrocketed, corn and canola oil and high fructose corn syrup hadn’t yet been invented and folks were thriving in good health on eggs fried in bacon fat, fruit pies with lard-crust and foods fried in grass-fed tallow. Now we're all obese and dying of diseases like diabetes and cardiovascular problems. But the big food companies have everyone convinced (manipulated), via our stupid ass government (puppets) that lard and butter are bad and you should eat processed oils. And starches and HFCS in all our food now spikes our insulin response, so the sugars and simple starches are stored as fat, and we march toward diabetes as our pancreas screams for mercy.

sorry, topic cranks me up.

[SoMo]

Me too , I try to use butter and bacon grease and olive oil to avoid the veg oil. Grow my fresh pork, and chickens for eggs and meat. Grains are for hooch. Monsanto almost put me through college, as a freshman they offered. 80k a year plus house, vehicle etc maintaining vast herds of their cattle. Met a girl got laid to hell with college, probably a good thing.

[Tap]

The worst thing subsidized corn is doing to us is KILLING US. Subsidized corn has made processed corn oil, and HFCS so cheap it has become ubiquitous in ALL our foods. Its subsidized because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA. And grain is the base of our food pyramid because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA, it has no business in our food pyramid, its not a paleolithic food like vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish/meat. At the turn of the twentieth century diabetes rates were low, cardiovascular disease was almost unheard of and obesity rates were a tiny fraction of what we're suffering today. Lard and butter were the darlings of the home cook, the primary source of fat in the diet. This was before the processed vegetable oil industry skyrocketed, corn and canola oil and high fructose corn syrup hadn’t yet been invented and folks were thriving in good health on eggs fried in bacon fat, fruit pies with lard-crust and foods fried in grass-fed tallow. Now we're all obese and dying of diseases like diabetes and cardiovascular problems. But the big food companies have everyone convinced (manipulated), via our stupid ass government (puppets) that lard and butter are bad and you should eat processed oils. And starches and HFCS in all our food now spikes our insulin response, so the sugars and simple starches are stored as fat, and we march toward diabetes as our pancreas screams for mercy.

sorry, topic cranks me up.

+one million. Well said.

[Truckinbutch]

Jimbo , you are preaching to my choir .

[aquavita]

Grandpa Leo - Not a "P.C." kind of guy - sold food to the Fur Ranching Industry (mink, fox, ermine, etc.). Ate a loaf of toast, 2.5 pounds of bacon and a dozen eggs every week for breakfast. Lived to 94 - worked up until 2 weeks before he died. Also had a thing for KFC 1x a week when grandma stopped making Sunday chicken.

Firm believer that the less "processed" your food source is - whatever the source - you are better off.

[SoMo]

My great grandma was 92 ate all the bad stuff supposedly bad, lard, butter, bacon etc. never anything processed. Died at 92 eating a hotdog drinking a Pepsi watching a cardinals game on tv don't get no better than that. Miss you grandma Bertie. Don't make em like that no more.