Yeast + Electricity = ???

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Yesterday I put down my first rum wash. Being that it's winter and really cold at night I hooked up my new to controller and hung an element in the wash. All wash going good, until today when I brushed against the ball valve on my fermenter. I got an electric shock. Checked everything, and lo and behold, I suspect that my cheap eBay element is the cause of 240v running through the wash. I've since turned it off, but as there didn't seem to be much activity. Would the electricity have killed the yeast?

[Yummyrum]

Tok , NO idea about electrocuting yeast but I can say that a warm Rum will ferment out in as little as 36 hrs.

Its possable its just fininished.Id be tasting the wash ...see if its bitter...its done.

LOl..l hope you have binned that element

[skow69]

Check the ground to the fermenter, also. That should have tripped your GFCI.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

It hasn't finished fermenting. Gravity is still at 1.060.
I have gotten rid of the element. Cheap China crap anyway. Lol

The fermenter is a HDPE barrel. Don't know what a GFCI is but nothing tripped.

[still_stirrin]

..... Don't know what a GFCI is but nothing tripped.....

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) for a ground failure its a "failsafe" trigger.

Here in the USA, electrical circuits in wet areas (kitchen, bathroom, laundry rooms, etc.) require GFCI circuits by code. It should've protected your fermenter from electrifying. With 240 volts, you're lucky you didn't pull more current when you brushed the heater element. It could have been lethal.

But I doubt that electricity would have killed your yeast. They're not animals like us...no heart. They're more like sponges. So the voltage probably wouldn't "kill" them. Acidity, temperature, too much sugar, and more sure can though. But I'm speculating here and I've never tested yeast viability under "electrified" conditions.
ss

[thecroweater]

hmm I'm thinking it may well have killed the yeast off I wonder how warm your shorting element got. I would not try that trick again either, I would look at a heat belt or a lecky blanket or a good old ss aquarium heater

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

I didn't brush against the element. It's an over the side one.
The element was and still does work. But it's a cheap 800w China thing off eBay. The hottest the wash got was <30*. Which was 2* over the setpoint, and cooled when I stirred to add more yeast. A few hours without the element in and new yeast and a thick cap had formed. So it seems as though electricity does indeed kill yeast.

[skow69]

I love the variety of things you can learn on this forum! Yeast are electrocutable. Who'd a thunk?

[3d0g]

Check the ground to the fermenter, also. That should have tripped your GFCI.

GFCI itself doesn't use ground. It makes a comparison between current entering and leaving the circuit and kills the circuit if there's a difference.

[skow69]

Quite true. But if there is no grounding conductor there is no difference, no alternate path to earth. Until you brush against the drain valve, that is.

[3d0g]

Right. Had OP been using a GFCI protected outlet, it would have tripped the moment he touched the ball valve, regardless of "the ground to the fermenter".

[skow69]

Of course the intention of a GFCI ckt is to trip before a living creature bumps into the drain valve and completes the ground path. Hence the advantage of grounding the fermenter when it contains something that is connected to 240 VAC.

I suppose we could avoid all those nuisance trips by eliminating all of the equipment grounds. What the hell, they will trip "the moment he touched the ball valve."

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Everything was grounded, bar the element as I wasn't aware it needed one because it wasn't made with one. It was grounding itself through the stainless temp probe.

This is the element I was using.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1736992917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[shadylane]

Yes electricity will kill yeast, don't ask me how I know
In USA the max voltage between ground and a hot wire is 120v even on a 240v circuit.

[InglisHill]

Hmmmm, maybe you should get rid of the drain valve.

No chance of brushing up against it again.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Possible. But then there's a hole in the side of my fermenter. Lol. Although I do have a plastic valve.

[shadylane]

That would keep the crappy Chinese heater from killing the yeast.
But I wouldn't suggest sticking your finger in the plastic fermenter.
Trust me on this one. I've tried it.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Mm. I have something else I will try first. I don't trust that element anymore. Would rather not have 240v leaking out anywhere.

[InglisHill]

That sounds like a solid plan TS!

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Will let you know elsewhere first

[InglisHill]

Super secret squirrel Kiwis.........

Can't be in our club if yer not from NZ

Unless we let you.

[3d0g]

Grounds are meant to protect infrastructure (equipment, wiring, etc.) GFCI is specifically for protecting people. It only takes a couple mA to trigger a GFCI so it's a safe bet it would have triggered well before anything was touched, regardless of equipment ground wiring.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Ok. So after some googling. A GFCI is the same thing as an RCD. So yes. It is connected to one. As is every circuit I the house. But it still didn't trip anything, so there must not have been enough current there to trip it.

[InglisHill]

May not have been 240V, could have been 24VDC that those controllers can put out.

I saw the pin out that looked the same as my one and I am still working out how to wire it right.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

No it was 240v, well 237v. The out put is a 250vAC relay.

[InglisHill]

That is really shocking!

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Yup. Sure was. Haha.

[3d0g]

Ok. So after some googling. A GFCI is the same thing as an RCD. So yes. It is connected to one. As is every circuit I the house. But it still didn't trip anything, so there must not have been enough current there to trip it.

If you felt it, there was enough to trip it. Please test your RCD as soon as possible - it's likely faulty.

[skow69]

3dog, I have to disagree. The equipment ground is all about protecting human beings. A live electrical case is no more of a problem than a live transmission line hanging in the air until someone touches it.

TS, actually, when I suggested checking the ground I had in mind a metal fermenter. I have never grounded a plastic barrel either. But now we can see the value of the safety ground. If that valve had been connected to a grounding conductor it would have been impossible for it to shock you, GFCI or not, because the current would have already sunk to earth. I'm just glad you weren't standing in a water puddle at the time.

That heater was a hell of a deal, 800 watts for $2.50 US. Too bad they leak.

[3d0g]

3dog, I have to disagree. The equipment ground is all about protecting human beings. A live electrical case is no more of a problem than a live transmission line hanging in the air until someone touches it.

What is a ground really skow? It's a redundant neutral. It follows the exact same path and terminates at the exact same place in your electric panel. The reason a ground has any value at all is because by convention it *should* be connected to the metal chassis of an appliance. An outlet that has the ground and neutral swapped will work all day long, day-in, day-out. Same with an outlet that has no (or disconnected) ground.

What if the appliance is plastic? What if it has no ground at all (VERY common - look around your kitchen)? This is why GFCI is important, and required by code on all kitchen, bathroom, and outdoor outlets. A ground fault will pass current all day long until the limit of the breaker is reached. 15-20A is *plenty* to send a human into cardiac arrest. GFCI protects humans from this very situation.