Vinegar oder in most recent wash

[MashMaker]

I racked off my latest wash today and I detect a slight vinegar oder and taste in it. wtf!

This is a 20 gallon modified sweet feed made with equal parts COB and 1qt feed grade molasses plus 8 cups of cooked rice. This was a modification I read on this forum somewhere not sure what thread it was in.

Everything was prepared following the original sweet feed recipe OG was 1.065 it took 4 days to ferment FG .997 nothing seemed abnormal about this fermente at all till I racked it off and had vinegar

In all my beer and wine making I have never had this happen.

Would this be from something in one of my grains or could there be something else?

[MashMaker]

What about running it will it produces any alcohol/clean my still????

[Johnny6]

I've had a ferment end up acidic. I figured that I got some sort of infection which converted part of the wash to vinegar. I ran the wash through a spirit run and there were some unusual results. The acid definitely cleaned all of the copper, just like you'd expect with a vinegar run. The vapors were also very strongly acidic at some points. Ultimately the low-wines left after the stripping run did not seem excessively acidic and I was able to add water and run a spirit run with reasonable results. (None of my stuff is too good yet, but this one wasn't the worst, as best I remember it.)

I'm not sure what will cause a ferment to begin producing vinegar, but for me there were signs of some sort of infection. If you don't have any sign of infection, that is a puzzle.

[der wo]

Vinegar is produced, when there is already alcohol produced and then oxygen added. For example if your container has no bung, it's only a matter of time.
The slight vinegar smell in the wash will increase, if you wait longer. So strip it as soon as possible. Although it's a stripping run, toss a little at the beginning.
After that you decide, if it's good enough for the spirit run or only for cleaning your still.

[Truckinbutch]

I had the same thing a few weeks ago . Vinegar smell carried over to strip run . Ran again and it cleaned up nicely .

[der wo]

I had it once with an AG. Because the FG was only 1020, I decided to add enzymes and wait for another week. The enzymes helped, but after that it had that smell.

[MashMaker]

I had the same thing a few weeks ago . Vinegar smell carried over to strip run . Ran again and it cleaned up nicely .

I'm guessing I will loose all the sweet feed flavors I have decided I really like

[Danespirit]

What about running it will it produces any alcohol/clean my still????

+1 On what der Wo and TB wrote...
I would do a run as soon as possible...
You might get lucky to get some fine spirits out of it...anyway you look at it, you still got some excellent cleaning solution for your equipment if the spirits turn out bad.

[MashMaker]

I had it once with an AG. Because the FG was only 1020, I decided to add enzymes and wait for another week. The enzymes helped, but after that it had that smell.

Did you run it

[MashMaker]

I had the same thing a few weeks ago . Vinegar smell carried over to strip run . Ran again and it cleaned up nicely .

I'm assuming doing a stripping run will stop the vinegar making process

[Danespirit]

I had the same thing a few weeks ago . Vinegar smell carried over to strip run . Ran again and it cleaned up nicely .

I'm assuming doing a stripping run will stop the vinegar making process

It will..
The process of vinegar being produced, is stopped as soon as you distillate your ferment.

[der wo]

I had it once with an AG. Because the FG was only 1020, I decided to add enzymes and wait for another week. The enzymes helped, but after that it had that smell.

Did you run it

Yes I did.
And I gave one half of this low wines in the spirit run. But in there were another four low wines without vinegar smell. I think, this little bit "spice" was beneficial and it ages to a more complex taste. I did the spirit run with a LM-column, so I could compress the foreshots and heads. It ages still on wood and I have nothing similar to compare, so I'm not sure.
With the other half I experimented with natron, to see, if it reduces the vinegar. But it help little and it lost good flavours too.

[Truckinbutch]

I had the same thing a few weeks ago . Vinegar smell carried over to strip run . Ran again and it cleaned up nicely .

I'm guessing I will loose all the sweet feed flavors I have decided I really like

Mine was a first gen UJ . Has decent flavor carryover . Not as good as gen 5 , but it will do for now .

[MashMaker]

Ok I started stripping this mess first 10 gallons I got about a gallon and a half at 30% no vinegar oder or taste came through but it is far different than any sweet feed I have run before almost a fruity aroma. The second half should start dripping any minute.

[der wo]

but it is far different than any sweet feed I have run before almost a fruity aroma

I think I know what you mean. Less sweet, more light.

[MashMaker]

but it is far different than any sweet feed I have run before almost a fruity aroma

I think I know what you mean. Less sweet, more light.

Yeah it's hard to explain definitely different really curious how it will age after the spirit run

[MashMaker]

I finished the stripping run of the 20 gallon wash and ended up with just under 3 gallons of 28% low wines.
I don't know if it's my lack of skill in searching this forum or what but I have found very little on this topic to resurch it and the effect it has on the final product. Can anyone point me in the right direction

[MashMaker]

I finished the stripping run of the 20 gallon wash and ended up with just under 3 gallons of 28% low wines.
I don't know if it's my lack of skill in searching this forum or what but I have found very little on this topic to resurch it and the effect it has on the final product. Can anyone point me in the right direction

Just to add I striped the wash down to 12% because the yeld was so low 4s came off at 50% and quickly dropped to 30 compared to starting at 80-84% from my still on a normal wash

[Bagasso]

Vinegar is produced, when there is already alcohol produced and then oxygen added.

I don't think this is actually accurate. It isn't oxygen that causes alcohol to turn to vinegar but, exposure to air, which can contain the bacteria that turns wine into vinegar.

The oxidation of ethanol would give acetaldehyde and not acetic acid.

[Condensifier]

I had one 5 gallon batch turn to vinegar. It was a racked UJSSM which sat for maybe 4 months over summer. The way I understand it is a layer of co2 sitting over the wash will protect it from the vinegar bacteria acetobacter aceti which which turns alcohol into acetic acid which is the main component of vinegar.

[der wo]

Vinegar is produced, when there is already alcohol produced and then oxygen added.

I don't think this is actually accurate. It isn't oxygen that causes alcohol to turn to vinegar but, exposure to air, which can contain the bacteria that turns wine into vinegar.

The oxidation of ethanol would give acetaldehyde and not acetic acid.

Yes, the whole story is more complicated. Of course it's bacteria. But I thought, air/oxygen is necessary not only to bring the bacteria into the wash, but also for the bacteria to live or work? Is that false?

[Monkeyman88]

That is true. Oxygen needs to be present for it to convert the ethanol to acetic acid.

[thecroweater]

open ferments can get exposed to contamination to vinegar fly , they carry mother of vinegar and will start the ball rolling. Catch it quick enough and run it it is not to bad , nothing I even found can stop it once acetate fermentation starts

[Danespirit]

Yes, the whole story is more complicated. Of course it's bacteria. But I thought, air/oxygen is necessary not only to bring the bacteria into the wash, but also for the bacteria to live or work? Is that false?

Indeed oxygen is substantional for the process to start. In Germany where you live as also in the Netherlands and UK, vinegar is made out of beer. (of course other sorts are also made).
+ 1 Thecroweater..
"Mother of vinegar" is a substance with a consistency of a jellyfish, that will sink to the bottom once the vinegar bacterias has done their job.
A french tradition is to give a portion of it to the newly married bride.
The bacteria is carried by the vinegarfly, which is often falsely refered to as fruitfly.
A traditional way to produce vinegar is to pass the ethanol through layers of wood chippings, causing it to take the taste from the wood and to be exposed to oxygen as well.
I guess somewhat one can talk about "fermenting ethanol" by the acetic acid bacteria...funny..a ferment of fermented stuff .

[Bagasso]

Yes, the whole story is more complicated. Of course it's bacteria. But I thought, air/oxygen is necessary not only to bring the bacteria into the wash, but also for the bacteria to live or work? Is that false?

Yes, but your post didn't mention any of that.

[der wo]

Yes, the whole story is more complicated. Of course it's bacteria. But I thought, air/oxygen is necessary not only to bring the bacteria into the wash, but also for the bacteria to live or work? Is that false?

Yes, but your post didn't mention any of that.

Yes, I'm not a man of many words...

Ok, of course I don't know everything. But of course I write not everything I know or think into every post. It's not important for us, if it's a bacteria or what ever. Important is, what you have to do to prevent this: No air when there is already alcohol. Or better: No air after the yeast multiply stage. That's the point.

I did the mistake to write oxygen instead of air, yes, but I did not write oxidation.
But when I go back and read my post again, ok it sounds a bit like alc + O² = vinegar
...sorry

[Bagasso]

I did the mistake to write oxygen instead of air, yes, but I did not write oxidation.
But when I go back and read my post again, ok it sounds a bit like alc + O² = vinegar

The only reason I pointed it out was because I remember reading something similar, a long time ago, and believing that alc + o2 = vinegar, until reading up on vinegar years later.

[MashMaker]

I mixed this stripping with a little over 3gal of sweet feed fents I had and did my first ever reflux run on it and got just over 2gal at 90% came out clean with light taste of sweet feed after I make my cuts this afternoon I think I will have a nice light product that will age nice. Not what I was after but a good drop nonetheless.