Plastics question rearing it's ugly head again...

[conejo148]

Hey y'all. First off, this is not the same picked apart argument about PTFE or silicon or everlasting gaskets. Here's the backstory...

I'm a commercial distiller, and I'm tired of using Aldi's breadsticks on my still and not in my oven. I have a longtime friend that works for one of the largest O-ring suppliers in the world. So I asked him...do you know of anything that meets <insert HD member concerns here.>

He did a little research and suggested a company to call. They manufacture sanitary clamp gaskets (tri-clover type) for pharma/medical use, like in the manufacturing of prescription drugs. I'm going to post the testing/classification regs below and would like some input. I'm not a chemical engineer, so try to keep it light as I know there are dozens of people that know how to read MSDS sheets & the like.

From what I see, in this case, if these gaskets do indeed meet USP Class VI & FDA T21, P177.2600, are used to make prescription drugs, and are used in hospitals to pump air n such during brain and open heart surgeries, and used in food processing, they appear to be safe to use. Don't want to hear "use it if ya want, but I wouldn't.." because up until now I've used flour. Don't want to hear you looked at this before, because you haven't or at least haven't posted it here that I've seen. Basically, unless you have a valid, reasonable argument, tell me why this particular material is not safe to use.

Not trying to be a dick about this, but people get pretty "preachy" about things because all of us are pretty set in out ways, and I know it's all about promoting a safe hobby. I get that, and I'm all for it. Understand where I'm coming from though..I'm legal, and having a little bit of dough wrapped around a pipe doesn't look too legit for sight-seers. I'd rather hang out with you guys because ADI are bunch of snobs with sticks in their asses. But they're also open to new products.

Thanks, and I'll sit back and wait for fur to start flying.

https://www.chemours.com/Viton/en_US/as ... ontact.pdf
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet. ... b2ad6cf862

[der wo]

First off, this is not the same picked apart argument about PTFE or silicon or everlasting gaskets.

No,it's the same, we had this very often. Silicone...fda...
The resistant chart in the first pdf is about 23°C... For what is that a prove?
We have a few other charts somewhere in the forum, which prove, that silicone (also from viton, also fluor-silicone) is absolutely not resistant against the chemicals in the foreshots. Against hot ethanol vapour is not proven as far as I know. What we do is chemistry not cooking. Of course you can use silicone for almost all food related jobs and for the most of the medical.

[john2674]

All I can say is... thank you!! while there is the chance that the stuff wont work at least your going about it the right way! having it tested brings it from an unknown to either good or bad.
looking forward to hearing about the results! those charts are a little over my head ill admit but there are some really smart people on here who I'm sure can pick them apart for us!

[bearriver]

Not trying to be a dick about this, but people get pretty "preachy" about things because all of us are pretty set in out ways, and I know it's all about promoting a safe hobby.

I'm not seeing any new information being presented here. We have done the research and compared the MSDS of countless synthetics over the course of many years (including Viton) and are highly educated on this topic. What people percieve as "preachy" will carry no legitimate concern to us.

ADI is a great site for commercial folks. I've been a lurker there for years and can say it is the best place for a professional to discuss distilling as a business. They got a bunch of jerks also, but where doesn't?

Dupont's Viton that you linked us to has been proven to not be completely resistant to the gambit of chemicals that are present in their vapor form. Chemicals present in the heads will break it down.

I wouldn't trust anyone to do my safety related research for me... Think about that for a minute.

[john2674]

Well that's looking a bit disappointing. but expected. on the same note bear I wouldn't trust just one set of research but if many different sources agreed on somethings safety then I would begin to trust it. like ptfe for example, how many of us have actually performed our own safety tests on it.... id be willing to bet very few. but the few who did came to an agreement that it was safe so a lot of us use it.

[der wo]

We have resistant charts, which say ptfe is safe and silicone not. Of course we have to trust someone sometimes, because we can not test everything ourselfs. And where start where stop? Did you test yourself the bad effects of the radiation of your mobile phone? Or did you test if the flooring of your house releases something toxic in the air?
Conejo gave us the same sort of (for us useless) information we have read often, nothing new, as bearriver has written. So nothing will change after his post.

[bearriver]

on the same note bear I wouldn't trust just one set of research but if many different sources agreed on somethings safety then I would begin to trust it. like ptfe for example, how many of us have actually performed our own safety tests on it.... id be willing to bet very few.

My "trust" comment was directed at the research aspect of this topic. It had nothing to do with experimentation. Besides, anyone using PTFE seals in their still is testing it.

Under no circumstances whatsoever should someone ever do your safety related research for you. If you are going to operate something with the potential for harm then the responsibility lies solely on you to properly educate yourself in it's operation and maintenance. True for cars, chainsaws, boats, marital spouses, and yes... Alcohol stills.

[conejo148]

Thanks for the input so far guys. I should clarify, when I meant it was new information, I haven't seen anywhere on here about this specific Viton (EPS-600 & 900) compound. And while I knew beforehand the tests were conducted at 23 dg C, there are also test done at higher temps for 678 hours (linked below) in pure acetone, furfural, various aldehydes, etc, etc. You may have to sign up to see it, but they don't email you anything. Moving forward, standard Viton along with silicon is bad, already know this. Was really just curious about this improved version.

The only time I recall seeing anything about the family of Viton, there were only 5 versions mentioned. This post was from 2010..I looked it up. This one (EPS-600,) would be the 6th, so thought I'd throw it up. It does rate favorably higher in all tests that data is given, but still feel something is missing.

http://site-chemours.force.com/CRG_VitonGuide

[bearriver]

That chart shows poor resistance to multiple chemicals present in the heads fraction, but I digress.

[der wo]

That's another problem of silicone, there are so many different products with different compounds and characteristics.
But (I can't say it correct in english and I'm not sure about to have understood it correctly) in the production process of silicone chemicals belonging to vinegar are used to harden (in german it's called "essigvernetzt", that means vinegar sews it together) the silicone. So against these chemicals silicone cannot be made resistant in general. The chemicals in the foreshots are belonging to the vinegar-group, anything with "acet..." has to do with vinegar.
Please correct me if anyone know better, it's smattering what I wrote...

[conejo148]

Vinegar is roughly 5-10% acetic acid, so yes, they're in the same family. Technically it's the carboxylic acid family.

[conejo148]

This is the list I based my post off of. Other than what's in this list, what else is there in the heads? Acetone is rated a "B," Furfural-which boils well above 300 degrees-- is a "C," and everything else is an "A." I'm asking because if there's something else in there, and there probably is, I'd like to know what it is, and where that info is located at here in the forums. Because I can't find it.

I'm not trying to sharpshoot, I just get really bored at work and like to look for stuff. And if it happens that PTFE is the end all of end all's, so be it. My issue with it is that almost every time I've tried to replace a gasket it involved some sanding. Like to find something a little more flexible that's not going to kill me or make me sick.

Acetone-B
Methanol-A
Ethyl acetate-A
Ethanol-A
2-Propanol-A
1-Propanol-A
Water-A
Butanol-A
Amyl alcohol-A
Furfural-C

[Appalachia-Shiner]

Damn fellers, you can buy 100% PTFE Teflon gaskets from industrial hardware suppliers.
That's what I use..

[conejo148]

I know 'Shiner, but like I mentioned it needs a little TLC to fit perfect every time, that's all. And I know it's sure cheap enough...less than $2 for a 2". Just looking...always looking.

[der wo]

Ok, no surprise for me, that you know more about that than me. But what means "carboxylic acid family" for us? Is it an argument, that it could be possible to invent a foreshot-resistant silicone?

Ethyl acetate I miss on your list. That's the most important with methanol and acetaldehyd.
But sorry, I cannot find these ratings in the links. Where is the A-rating for the Ethyl acetate? For what silicone? This would be a surprise for me. Here I don't find it:
http://site-chemours.force.com/CRG_VitonGuide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I don't find anything there about 600S-type. And all the silicones there have bad results (C and D).
On the other links I only can find tests with 23°C and nothing with ethyl acetate and acetaldehyde.

[conejo148]

It's listed as the Extreme VTP on the chart, but the correct trade name for the compound is Chemours Viton® Extreme™ ETP-600S Fluoroelastomer Compound

Acetaldehyd-C
Ethyl Acetate-B --my fault, but that is a reason why I always try to post sources...for the occasion when I make mistakes

To see the rating, select the chemical and the fields will populate with a letter grade. The test details can be opened with the "Additional Data" box below the chemical selection chart.

The acid family name is just trivia for the day.

[der wo]

Ok, now I got it.

-for acetaldehyd we have C and no additional info about temperature.
-for ethyl acetate we have B at 23°C.
-for ethanol we have A at between 20 and 40°C.
-for methanol we have A at 23°C.
Only B and C for the foreshots at room temperature and nothing about high temps.

PTFE gets for all these an A also at boiling temperature.

It's interesting, that the different types vary so much. Perhaps a "good" silicone could be a compromise, if it was really difficult or expensive to seal with more safe materials.
You cannot seal all stills without flexible materials like silicone, but for sure you can build every system (CM,LM,VM,Potstill...) you want without, when you buy the right parts (no pressure cooker for example) for it.

[NZChris]

I'm legal, and having a little bit of dough wrapped around a pipe doesn't look too legit for sight-seers.

Make a feature of it. Boast that you would rather use flour paste than plastics you can't be sure are safe.

[der wo]

I'm legal, and having a little bit of dough wrapped around a pipe doesn't look too legit for sight-seers.

Make a feature of it. Boast that you would rather use flour paste than plastics you can't be sure are safe.

Yes! Your competitors will hate you.

[conejo148]

Seems like we've answered this question then. Glad there was no shouting or kicking or screaming.

[shadylane]

I prefer a food grade silicon gasket that's been wrapped with PTFE tape.

[thecroweater]

I prefer a food grade silicon gasket that's been wrapped with PTFE tape.

and me
Just to touch base on the board rules here
8. These forums take a very strong negative view on the usage of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use in any area of hobby distilling (however HPDE buckets are acceptable for fermentation.) There simply are too many types of plastics and lack of reliable information about plastics, for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. There is a forum for proven info for or against any material (material/safety.)
That acknowledged the great majority here are not luddites and welcome new conclusive evidence of another product shown to be safe for our use but tread carefully. This means testing by multiple sources with no conflict of interest under all the conditions we are likely to encounter against all the compounds likely to be involved. I have some great PDF file charts here on my laptop (my fav is the Cole-palmer charts) , the big issue I have with them all is they test how the gasket or material will stand up not the product contamination .
Conclusive testing needs to include both results side by side, saying that my charts show Vitron to be almost identical in reaction to PVC (marginally worse in Ethyl Alcohol) and no where near as good as Epoxy. What epoxy? (who knows) what contaminates does it leech? (any ones guess), this is the problem with all these charts and why my Cole-palmer carts have a warning and disclaimer attached
As far at wanting a permanent gasket in a commercial still i get that 100%, never seen flour paste used on a commercial still in my life and the last time I used flour paste (a long time ago) it failed. It was jute cord soaked in paste for a crox joint and did not work for that application

[cob]

conejo148

these are major players the first 4 will make ptfe O-rings to 72" and stock to 20". some have sanitary ptfe gaskets some don't.

SIS was the least expensive in smaller sizes when I first made this list.

the pricing varied as much as 600% for the same gasket, so shop well.

oringswest

sealsales

interplasinc

chicagogasket

scientific instrument services

marco rubber

msc industrial direct

with the advent of eptfe (expanded), ptfe rope, and ptfe tubing,

hopefully you can find an answer good for you

[shadylane]

The big issue I have with them all is they test how the gasket or material will stand up not the product contamination .

That's the problem in a nut shell, It's not so much what the distillation vapors dos to the seal.
It's what leaches out of the seal into the alcohol vapors.

[Bagasso]

It's what leaches out of the seal into the alcohol vapors.

The thing that everyone seems to overlook is that ptfe tape is actually rather porous, especially to vapors, which brings up the question, is wrapping in ptfe tape really sealing off the otherwise questionable material?

[Monkeyman88]

It's what leaches out of the seal into the alcohol vapors.

The thing that everyone seems to overlook is that ptfe tape is actually rather porous, especially to vapors, which brings up the question, is wrapping in ptfe tape really sealing off the otherwise questionable material?

Do have data to back this up. Everything I have read about ptfe specifies that it is non-porous. And unwrapping a well used gasket made from printed card shows no signs of liquid perforation.

[bearriver]

Bagasso, this thread may of be interest to you: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=58327

[Bagasso]

Bagasso, this thread may of be interest to you: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=58327

Thanks Bear but it wasn't for me, it was just food for thought.

[rubber duck]

My only problem with silicone seals is not what it puts into the drink but what happens if that seal fails. I'm pretty hard core as far as fire is concerned, so I don't use silicone because it breaks down over time.

[Bagasso]

Do have data to back this up.

According to this.

PTFE tape is characterized at the microscopic level as a highly-porous solid. These pores are estimated from scanning electron micrographs to be about 0.5 μm in size, though the pores may change in size and number if the tape is stretched.

Ethanol is 0.00038 microns (3.8 angstrom), lighter chemicals are less and heavier greater but, 0.5μm is 500 angstrom so certainly many of the vapors rubbing up against that ptfe tape are getting through.