Rock Maple

[SuperDavid]

Hello
I've done some searching on Aging spirits on Maple and havn't found much info.
I'm in Australia so other than store bought chips from used barrels, white oak doesn't seem to be available.
I've got access through a friend of a friend who is a carpenter to some Rock Maple. Does anyone age their spirits with rock maple?
thanks

David

[minime]

Hello
I've done some searching on Aging spirits on Maple and havn't found much info.
I'm in Australia so other than store bought chips from used barrels, white oak doesn't seem to be available.
I've got access through a friend of a friend who is a carpenter to some Rock Maple. Does anyone age their spirits with rock maple?
thanks

David

I don't age on wood but I do lots of woodworking. Most age on white oak or fruitwoods. I can say from working and milling these materials that most have a very distinct fragrance. Maple does not...........you can barely smell it at all so I don't think it would do much for your spirits.

Good luck on your quest

[bronzdragon]

I am not familiar with Rock Maple. However, I do age mine on charred Sugar Maple. If Rock Maple is similar to Sugar Maple, I'd go ahead and give it a try in a quart and see how it does.

Make sure it's dried out, and either toasted or charred before using. You don't want any wet wood or tree sap flavor in there.

The reason I started doing this is because a certain Ten. Whiskey is run through Sugar Maple charcoal, and after trying it, I liked the flavor.

~bd~

[minime]

If Rock Maple is similar to Sugar Maple, ~bd~

Where I come from these are one in the same tree............

[Dnderhead]

it is ok to use just does not have the tannins that oak does.

[Barney Fife]

Sugar maple is also referred to as rock maple, and hard maple. All the same...

Heavily charred, or better still, made into charcoal, it is great for aging whiskey, IF you like that flavor. It'll be smokier, almost bacon-like. And the color of the whiskey will be more red than amber. I've made sugar maple charcoal, and just a bit(couple spoonfuls?) added to any whiskey, even UJSM, can be just the ticket. I've also used some of this charcoal along with oak, in some of my rums, and ooh boy! what a treat....!

But it IS different, so try small batches first to see if you like it or not.

JD doesn't age in maple, only a slow trickle through a large vat to clean it up. Aging in maple charcoal is very different.

[bronzdragon]

Yeah, I just char small sticks of sugar maple and let them sit inside my jars of whiskey for a few months, then switch over to charred white oak.

I agree that the maple will add a bit stronger of a flavor. Generally speaking, the darker the color gets, the stronger the flavor ... in my experience.

~bd~

[SuperDavid]

Thanks for the replies guys!
I'll try out a small amount while I try to source some white oak.

[Butch50]

Is there an interenet source for rock/sugar maple? Sounds like something I want to try.

[bronzdragon]

I bought mine off of ebay. White Oak and Sugar Maple.

~bd~

[Barney Fife]

Is there an interenet source for rock/sugar maple?

Look behind most any warehouse or behind any appliance store. Many, many shipping pallets are maple.

[theholymackerel]

Wow.

I'd be REALLY careful about usin' pallets for agin' booze. Do ya know fer sure that dogs or bums didn't piss on it? Was any machine oil or other chems spilled on it? Many pallets are chemically treated too...

[Barney Fife]

Many pallets are chemically treated too...

Highly unlikely for a maple pallet. The vast majority are built as the wood is cut, fresh off the saw. The wood isn't even dried whatsoever. A good friend owns one of the largest pallet making outfits, so trust me on this one. Only ones I can think of that would be treated are pallets that are used for overseas shipping, which wouldn't be maple anyhow, because maple is too dense to properly treat with chemicals. Oil or any other stain will be easy to spot, so don't grab that pallet; a bit of common sense is needed.

As for the dirt, you will be cutting and cleaning the wood before introducing it to your booze, I hope. And if we char it or make charcoal of it, then your point is double moot. Much, much cleaner and safer than all the folks using JD smoking chips; THAT stuff is dirty! It contains the entire exterior of the barrels which were exposed to the environment for years/decades, and then run through a chipper, where who knows what else has been chipped, and also contains dirty machine oil. The stuff is meant to be burned in a smoker....!

[violentblue]

I've used pallets for wood BBQ before, picked through quite few to find the decent wood, but it fired up nice and smelled great, so I'd think it'd be a good source for smoking or aging woods, but you do need to pick through a few.

[Husker]

a word of caution for using pallet wood. A lot of it is chemical treated. Be vary careful!

H.

[Barney Fife]

Where are you guys looking for pallets to find them chemically treated? They don't treat pallets used to ship washers, driers and fridges or for food , I promise.

[Husker]

If you KNOW where the pallet itself was made, then you are probably getting safe wood. For unknown pallets, you do not know.

I will about guarantee that ANY pallet made outside of your home country (I am speaking of US specifically, but I am pretty sure AU is the same), will have to be treated wood. The govt regulates things like this, and requires insecticides on wood of unknown origin. That does not mean every stick coming in actually IS treated, just that it is supposed to be.

A lot of material arrives palleted (thinks like appliances, engines, and other large import items). Most of those pallets are still pretty good after shipment, and end up getting into the freight delivery system. In other words, unless you KNOW where a pallet came from, you can not assume too much about how usable it is for anything that will be put into your body.

I had looked into using nice "looking" oak pallets in the past, but after a little more looking, I abandoned that choice, because I simply could not be sure of what I was dealing with.

H.

[bronzdragon]

So little is required for these purposes ... why not just buy some that you know is good quality?

I can understand wanting to save your pennies in this day and age, but $10 can get you enough to use for a long while.

I also re-char and use my pieces a second time to extend their life.

~bd~

[Barney Fife]

Find me the Gov. Regs that state that. Perhaps for imports, yes, but even that is unlikely. Insects only live in the living parts of the tree(the sapwood, bark and the cambium layer), and the latter two are not used, so that leaves only the sapwood. A pallet made in Michigan to ship a refrigerator to Ohio will not be treated, nor will the New England made pallet that supports boxes of apples. Something coming out of Asia will be a different story, I agree, but that's where some common sense comes-in, not counting the fact that it won't be sugar maple .

If you know your woods, and have enough common sense, you can find a lot of good wood. Otherwise, yes, buy it, but now you're relying on your source, and hoping your new maple wasn't kilned alongside a pressure treated telephone pole.... Me, I'll trust the rough sawn pallet that I know wasn't even kilned; it was sawn and never touched the ground before being nailed to the pallet frame. Literally.

Bronze, agreed that little is needed if you want to jus try it, but for making charcoal, you need quite a bit, and maple isn't cheap to buy(but free for the taking <lol>)

[theholymackerel]

Barney, I'm sure ya have excellent knowledge about one specific pallet manufacturer, but I seriously doubt yer speakin' from a position of knowledge about the pallet industry in general.

We are simply suggestin' folks exercise caution. I don't see why yer gettin' worked up about this.

[Husker]

I agree to disagree somewhat here. Yes, if you KNOW where a pallet came from (say it is a closed loop delivery system, that buys all pallets from a known source, which produces ALL pallets in a known environment), then you certainly could use that wood, as though it was slightly dirty wood (the wood has picked up some awful from its usage). But for most of us, we simply do not have this information.

Again, back to my point, we get a lot of imports, shipped in on pallets. Well, MANY of these pallets, end up getting re-used for all sorts of domestic shipping. You never know how many hands (companies) a pallet has gone through. Also, when they get (slightly) damaged, they are simply patched up with a fresh board or 2.

Now, that is not to say that these unknown pallets are not good for anything. I am slowly setting up to start learning a little blacksmithing. Now, since there is quite a shortage of coal here in NE (any I could get would need to come from the smokies, or from WY), using charcoal is a good substitute. Creating charcoal from discard pallets is a GREAT way to get a good amount of good charcoal. But it is not something that I am smoking my food with, or using to flavor my beverages. It is too easy to pick up a 120 lb's of used white oak from a used bourbon barrel from a hardware store (like Lowes, Menards, etc). Last one I got was $25, because the top and bottom were cracked and warped bad. Did not bother me at all, cause I stripped the wood out anyway, and did not care if the barrel was still a barrel. 20 cents a lb for known good grade oak was worth it to me, just to be on the safe side. Sure made a HELL of a lot of sticks.

Most of the wood I get to smoke with, I simply get for free, as people need fruit trees, or nut trees removed. Get that wood for free, cut and split it, and stack for a year or so, then chop for smoking wood. It is free and works great, and I know it is safe, as I dealt with the tree itself. Free stuff like that is MUCH easier to find than most people think. Simply keep your ears open, and smile and chat with people. If you see a scraggly fruit/nut that someone obviously does not pick or care for, year after year, simply knock on their door, strike up a friendly conversation, and ask if you could remove the tree for them, at NO COST to them (i.e. free FOR YOU ) You will not get every tree, but you will get more than enough to keep you stocked.

Maples are the same way. You get a BAD wind storm (or ice, or anything), many trees get damaged, and people want them out. Offer your services for "free", and the spoils of the process are yours (usually).

Just be SURE that you are capable of removing a tree if this in a residential setting. You do not want to end up dropping something on someone's roof, or any overhead wires. That'll cost you a LOT of grief and probably cash.

H.

[Barney Fife]

Listen, I've forgotten more about wood than you'll ever know, but for legality reasons, I can't go further without revealing myself. Your concern is completely unfounded. Anyone in North America who finds a maple pallet can be assured it hasn't be treated with any pesticides. And if the pallet didn't originate in North America, specifically, East of the Mississippi, it isn't sugar maple. It's that simple. Pallets for cheap goods are rarely sent around, because the cost of making a new one is less than the cost of shipping one back.

I'm sticking to my guns because this is good information being shot down by a lack of knowledge and understanding on your part. As long as the person looking knows sugar maple from other woods, and the pallet hasn't had anything spilt on it(obvious, as maple is white and pore-less), then it's a go. Also, look for the pallet with the twisted boards; that's a sure sign the wood was used green and never saw anything but a large band saw and a nail gun. Crikey! Let's all give up and buy sore bought alky instead.

[Husker]

Barney,

Are you able to write a "howto" that could be used by someone who is NOT an expert in ID'ing wood, on what to look for to be 100% ASSURED that the wood indeed was sugar maple and safe.

If so, please do. It sound like you have a great grasp on what is good and safe, and what is not. However, most here on the board do NOT have this insight. Since you have this knowledge, please help others to properly and safely ID these items.

H.

[Barney Fife]

I sure could, but pictures are definitely needed, and I can't post any. But I will do some searching later and find sites to link to, then add my textm using layman's terms instead of techno-geek .

But for starters, we can use the simple process of elimination. We have 3 main maple species in North America, sugar, red, and bigleaf. Bigleaf only grows wild on the west coast, so if you see a crate or pallet that is stamped "Oregon's best apples" or someting like that, and you know, through examination, that the wood is maple, then odds are extremely high it's bigleaf. If the crate reads "Bob's carrot farm, product of Maine", then bingo, sugar maple. If it reads "Virginia's finest _____", then, odds are you're looking at red maple. How do you know wen it's maple and not another native hardwood? well, maple and birch can look similar at first glance, so take a knife and grab you a big sliver, and taste it. We all know what maple sugar tastes like, right? Birch doesn't taste anything like maple. Then look at it, birch will be very bland, and even in color and texture, and soft enough that a thumb nail will dent it easily. Maple will show more ray flecks, and be quite hard to dent with the thumbnail. Most other native hardwoods will be obvious, like walnut, oak, ash, etc...

[theholymackerel]

Barney, I wasn't snarky with you (go back and re-read please), so don't get snarky with me. I got an "A" in both my dendrology classes, so ya might say I'm familiar with N. American forest products.

There are "new" (6 year old actually) regulations involvin' pallets that I suspect yer friend in the industry didn't tell ya about. It clearly states that some pallets are soaked in a methyl bromide bath. I'm not a chemist, but I suspect that's bad for booze agin' purposes.

Here is a link: http://www.buckeyediamond.com/benefits-heattreated.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If I had a buddy that ran a pallet operation, and I could KNOW fer sure what wood and what processes were involved, then I might use 'em fer fer agin' booze. But to suggest folks go out and find pallets to use for agin' booze is just wrong.

First of all most folks can't pick up a piece of wood and ID it. Secondly most folks access to pallets is limited to big items shipped to them, or out back of the market or store. What they are gonna find there might be chemically treated, and at least runs a good chance of bein' urinated on.

Here is what another link says about how the heat treated pallets (the ones that weren't soaked in a methyl bromide bath) can actually help mould growth, "Many customers of heat treated pallets believe that the heat sterilization process not only eliminates insects in the wood but also prevents mould. While the heat sterilization process does kill mould, it does not prevent further potential for mould growth. In fact, heat sterilization can actually lead to ideal mould growing conditions." (The link, itself: http://www.ukpandi.com/ukpandi/Infopool ... ulletin454" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow )

I'm not tryin' to give ya a hard time Barney, I'm just offerin' up more info incase anyone has been swayed by what might possibly be a bad idea.

[Barney Fife]

Okay, back to reality....

A chemically treated pallet is only necessary for import/export. Again, if the pallet originated in your country, it won't likely be treated. The heat treatment isn't going to hurt the wood for our purposes, and the mold issue is moot, as it's easy to spot.

Mold can be found on oak(old barrels, especially) or all woods for that matter, also, so let's look at what to look for; mold is usually black, like we've all seen in our bathrooms, basements, window sills, or behind the sink or something. It is easily and completely killed with a simple bleach solution, but the best bet is to simply avoid it. On many woods, the mold will be blue in color, so if you see a blue spot, that's mold. Cut it out if you can, or toss the wood if you don't want to bother. A fungus can also get into woods; it is called "spalting", and a quick Google for "spalted maple" will find photos of what it looks like, but it is easily distinguished from mold because it will go deep into the wood, and form ink-black lines, fine lines, that run randomly. It's quite pretty, but not something we want to drink. again, it can happen in most woods, so it's good to know what you're looking at.

For what it's worth, I was processing some of my old barrel oak yesterday, and found a lot of old mold on the exterior of the staves once I trimmed them of the crusty old surface. Lesson here is that we shouldn't cut up an old barrel and just use the pieces as-is; they must be cleaned up to fresh, clean wood on all 4 surfaces! I also would discourage everyone from using smoking chips; those chips are entire barrels run through a chipper, so all mold, fungus, rust(iron oxide!) will be present in the chips. Fine for smoking, not so fine for direct contact with your booze.

On the maple front, I've also realize that we don't need to bother with the specific species, as all maples will work for aging; the sugar content does vary among species(sugar and black maple being highest), but any will work fine for our use. So, if you don't want to do some scrouging, any hardwood dealer will be happy to sell you a small board of plain maple, as will most lumber yards/Lowes/Home Depot.

[Tater]

On a used pallet how would ya know whats been poured on it outside of what manufacture may or may not have done?Pissed on poured on what may have leaked on it from its cargo or whatever.Like using old clay jugs don't know what might been stored in them last hundred years.So I would recommend not to use anything your not sure of.

[theholymackerel]

Okay, back to reality.... any hardwood dealer will be happy to sell you a small board of plain maple, as will most lumber yards/Lowes/Home Depot.

That's a good suggestion there Barney.

Folks can use pallet wood for agin', pee in this washes/mashes for nutrients, and use a plastic and fibreglass still for distillation if they really wanna, but it don't mean it's a good idea.

[The Chemist]

Pallets are usually made from the most abundant, cheapest wood available, and this varies by location. White oak is preferred where it is abundant, so I guess maple could be preferred in other places. Around here...a 1 X 6 X 10 hard maple board cost me about $50...of course, that was 'furniture grade'...but they ain't makin' no pallets out of it around here...

[Barney Fife]

I, Barney Fife of Mayberry NC, hereby solemnly declare that I will never mention wood again.

Dated this 24th day of the 9th month in the calender year of 2008