New recipe is going cloudy

[Woodside]

Hi everyone, long time distiller but first time poster

I hope you can help, but to give you all of the facts, firstly please understand my equipment, I have a 1 off built distillery that was built with maths rather than craft, I know this alone will spark some queries, but let me explain as I understand it (I built it with a good friend of mine who specialises in AD plants and solar energy... as in, he designed and built his families solar farm and AD plant, so as a mathematician who understands energy and gas flow he was more than qualified for this project)

I have 65l copper pot with a 3.5kw heating element, may sound small, but it means we can run at full power for a slow and controlled still run, a very lengthy 7 hours process, but until now has been very effective

I would like to note that all of our batches start with our recipe stooping for 12 hours in 98% (196 proof) neutral grain spirit, then mixed to 50% (100 proof) before being added directly to the still belly, we did recently have an issue with the heating element being suffocated with the mash ingredients, so we fitted a surround to the element to allow heat to pass more efficiently, problem fixed.

We then use a whiskey head in the top of the still for ingredient flavours to really mix in together.

Now is where we got a little too clever with the build, at the top of the whisky head we fitted a 2" reducer before entering a 3FT 4" column, it acts as a mild reflux to really burn of the unwanted initial oils in the Gin mash at the early stages, it was a risk in the build, but until now we have had no issues

Now where my post questions start, we are playing with a new recipe which I will post below, and I am not sure if it is equipment or ingredients that are the problem, we are getting a very cloudy product

I have taken to cutting every part of the run into 1L collection jars (yes...a LOT of jars) just to try and find out where the cloudyness starts, but it is consistent, the distillate runs off perfectly clear until we cut it, when we reach 50% ABV (100 proof) we can not see through the spirit in the slightest, when we leave to sit over night we can see oils sitting in the top of the liquid, our target is for 40% (80 proof)

We also only ever use distilled water as the water by us is extremely hard

So do you think our issue is with...
1.our stooping process
2. our equipment
3. our recipe

Recipe below, but please be brutal as we are running out of patience with this 1, at 40% (80 proof) is is awful to look at, but god it tastes good! we just need to dial it too something we can work with

We are working currently in a workshop that averages 10 degrees Celsius, very cold! and we notice the cloudiness a lot here, but when we take our distillate home in bottles, when it warms to around 15 degrees Celsius it clears, but if cloudy when cold, this is not right, we just wish to understand where the error is occurring so that we will not get it with future recipes

Ingredient total for 50L distillery run
Juniper - 980g
Corriander - 490g
Licorice - 98g
Orris Root - 10g
Lemon peel - 39g
Lemon peel - 10g
Violet - 10g
Hawthorn Berries - 98g
Cinnamon - 49g
Dandelion Root - 10g

I know that the berries and juniper hold a lot of oils, but hawthorn are low in taste so increased them to compensate, I also know that there is a lot of oil in coriander, but it does have that required kick, I am really lost to know which part could be causing the cloudiness, if it is the recipe and not the equipment or process that is!

[howie]

novice gin maker here but that is a lot of juniper.
i wouldn't even dream of doing a 50L run yet, but if i did, i guess my juniper would be about 600gm.
how did you arrive at 980gms?
my last 2 small runs have louched.
one with a large botanical list, i added 94% neutral and it went from 40% to 50% without clearing.
recent louch was an simple OEG, had to raise it from 40% to 43%.
had a sample in a 250ml measuring jug and the heat from my hand cleared it just as i was going to add more neutral.
i am not bothered about drinking louched gin, i was just curious to see what it would take to clear.
it'll probably louch again when someone puts tonic into it.

[NZChris]

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p7543415

[Saltbush Bill]

Im not supprised its louching......mine would at those temps too.
For what its worth a lot of the oils that cause cloudiness come through at the very beginning and at the very end of the run in my opinion.

[Woodside]

novice gin maker here but that is a lot of juniper.
i wouldn't even dream of doing a 50L run yet, but if i did, i guess my juniper would be about 600gm.
how did you arrive at 980gms?
my last 2 small runs have louched.
one with a large botanical list, i added 94% neutral and it went from 40% to 50% without clearing.
recent louch was an simple OEG, had to raise it from 40% to 43%.
had a sample in a 250ml measuring jug and the heat from my hand cleared it just as i was going to add more neutral.
i am not bothered about drinking louched gin, i was just curious to see what it would take to clear.
it'll probably louch again when someone puts tonic into it.

We have always used a rule of thumb of around 36g botanicals per L, to date it has served us well until this recipe

Ingredient total for 50L distillery run
Per 50L - PER 1L
Juniper - 980g = 19.6g PER L
Corriander - 490g= 9.8g PER L
Licorice - 98g = 1.96g PER L
Orris Root - 10g = 0.2g PER L
Lemon peel - 39g = 0.78g PER L
Mugwort - 10g = 0.2g PER L (Previously listed this wrong)
Violet - 10g = 0.2g PER L
Hawthorn Berries - 98g = 1.96g PER L
Cinnamon - 49g = 0.98g PER L
Dandelion Root - 10g = 0.2g PER L

=35.88g botanicals per Litre

Louching is always going to be a problem at lower temperatures but this is cloudy even when temperature is raised to 15 degrees Celcius, and like I mentioned before, I have made cuts at every part of the run, from start too finish, and there is clearly a lot more cloudiness in the first 2.5L and final part of the run which I cut off and do not collect, which is too be expected, but is still bad through out what would be the hearts of the run

We have today decided we are going to set up a make shift 'breaking bad' operating tent in our unit and set up an oil filled heater on a thermostat to give us a controlled temperature working environment

So to re-phrase my question as I am pretty confident it is my recipe that is the problem

I am to begin with going to continue to cut the distillate at the lower temperatures, allow to rest for a week before raising the temperature to filter and bottle, only as this way at the lower temperatures I can really grasp the louching, if I can dial it out at lower temperatures then I will not have a problem in a temperature controlled environment

So I have 2 questions
1. which ingredient do you think is causing the louching? the Juniper, Corriander or Hawthorn Berries (ALL?)
2. do you think steeping for 24 hours at 98% (196 poof) before cutting to 50% (100proof) and adding to the boiler is a problem? should I steep in 50% (100 proof) instead for this period? I can not see how much impact this would have

I will also note that I pour all ingredients into the belly of the still ad do not strain them, so could cooking them in the belly be a problem also?

The taste is truly great, no lingering dry or bitterness on the pallet, very juniper forward to the nose which we personally like, citrus sweet to the tip of the tongue and earthy sweet resting taste, I am determined to get this right and not start over

[NZChris]

Before you go to all that trouble, have you tried the suggestion in the link I posted?

[Woodside]

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p7543415

I have followed that whole thread and took a lot from it from everyone's little inputs, but the louching is bad at 50% (100 proof), so as much as you are right in that method will clear the louch, it in turns raises the ABV, as I am trying to lower the ABV I would have to cut with maximum 30% ABV neutral and a lot of it to get to target 40% (80 proof), which then also dilutes the flavour profile beyond what I would be comfortable with

For me I accept fully that this works, and mean no disrespect with this comment, but is a compromise rather than a solution, I wish to work the craft to understand the botanicals better, this method is to me as good as using a flavour additive to a neutral spirit to achieve the desired taste rather than creating 1, that said for minimal louching I would consider it, but only minimal

[Saltbush Bill]

but this is cloudy even when temperature is raised to 15 degrees Celcius,

15c,,,,,Eskimos live in conditions like that .....mine louche's at anything under about 28c.
Just for comparison the recipe I use , uses 15g Juniper to the liter and half of that in Coriander.
Ive found that given time to rest ( a few months sometimes more) cloudy gin will clear.
Louching is not really a problem unless you specifically want a clear gin, it just means you have got plenty of flavour into your product.
I hear through the grape vine that that some of the multitude of craft gin producers are aiming for a gin that is slightly cloudy in the bottle or that louches once its mixed with tonic/ soda or other mixers so as to make their product a little different to the masses.
My take on it is....if you want a tasty gin drink it cloudy.

[Rrmuf]

+1 on Salty's comments on two counts.
- It does clear some over time. I have added neutral to a portion of a cloudy Gin batch only to find a month later that the untouched Gin cleared up alot. Mind you, I was at 29g/l of botanicals as opposed to the quoted 36g/l
- It is perfectly good cloudy. In that last batch, I somewhat prefer the untouched Gin over the portion I "watered" down with neutral.

[Rrmuf]

... I disagree however that eskimos live in 15c. Inuit never see anything above 5c .... not G&T territory for sure.

[howie]

maybe that is the conundrum of trying to obtain clear tasty gin at 40% abv.
the very act of extracting all those lovely flavours means that it's almost impossible to keep them in 40% abv solution without diluting with GNS.
it might explain the apparent popularity of navy strength gin, the only way to pack so much flavour in, is to have an abv of ~57%.
there is no doubt that the boiler method seems to extract all the flavours from the botanicals, as i regularly chew on the spent berries to test.
my usual botanical weight is about 26gm/l.
i'm thinking that with a heavy botanical bill, you are almost collecting a gin extract?
so maybe it's a combination of a few things, temperature/time/blending of late and early cuts/botanical bill, that may need tweaking if you're determined to maintain 40% abv.
but the compromise might be some flavour.

[NZChris]

Read that method again. It doesn’t raise the abv, it adds the same abv.

[Saltbush Bill]

As howie has mentioned trying to cut any craft/ hobby made gin to 40% is going to cause issues from what Ive seen. Often a few points on the alcometer can make a big difference...... even as little as 43%.

[Wozza]

Ingredient total for 50L distillery run
Juniper - 980g
Corriander - 490g
Licorice - 98g
Orris Root - 10g
Lemon peel - 39g
Lemon peel - 10g
Violet - 10g
Hawthorn Berries - 98g
Cinnamon - 49g
Dandelion Root - 10g

I know that the berries and juniper hold a lot of oils, but hawthorn are low in taste so increased them to compensate, I also know that there is a lot of oil in coriander, but it does have that required kick, I am really lost to know which part could be causing the cloudiness, if it is the recipe and not the equipment or process that is!

There is a problem in that you need to run 50L every time you make a change. Either looking for an improvement in flavour or to try to isolate a problem. My juniper, coriander and citrus bill (based on OEG) is:

Juniper: 15g/L (about 3/4 of yours)
Coriander: 5g/L (about 1/2 of yours)
Citrus: 10-15g/L (???)
Angelica root: 5-10g/L (???)

I've been varying the citrus a fair bit with orange, mandarins, lemons and grapefruit going in at different percentages. And I only do 7.0L on my small pot still. I steep at around 43% for two weeks, filter the solids and then run it. Your citrus bill seems to be non existent compared to mine so I doubt if that's the problem. And I didn't know there was any oil in coriander seeds. But you're using double my amount.

My first 20ml or so will be very cloudy, but clear as a bell from there on. I collect about 420ml/Litre. I did try diluting the the 7.0L to 8.0 and pulled an extra 1.0L to see if I could squeeze some more out, but that last litre wasn't worth keeping. And the first 400ml was cloudy before it started clearing. Although I left it on a kitchen shelf and it cleared in a couple of days. Haven't splashed any tonic into it so I don't know if it will louche when I do, but the bulk of the run is fine.

The only time I've distilled with the botanicals in the boiler is in my micro stove-top still and with pretty much the same botanical percentages it was slightly cloudy all the way through. But quite nice nevertheless. Maybe the heavy juniper/coriander percentage AND the fact that it's all in the boiler is causing the problem. If you can, maybe steep everything for two weeks using the same quantities in 43% neutral and filter it all out before it goes in the boiler.

Just in passing, the last run was mostly all grapefruit with a little mandarin (15g/L) and I gave a bottle to my son-in-law's sister. She's a big Tanqueray drinker and she reckons she prefers mine. Nothing to do with your problem, but I only found out today and wanted to tell someone!

[jonnys_spirit]

I'd recommend setting up a small still to fine tune your recipe and process before scaling up so you can reiterate the process a number of times as needed with lower quantities. When you go to scale up to the larger batch do it in increments if possible of say 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1/1 boiler charges to be sure that scaling up doesn't introduce anomalies.

Logic would suggest that if you changed the recipe and this wasn't happening with the prior recipe then yes it's the recipe (which in my mind includes end to end process, botanical bill, maceration, batch size, distillation, cuts, etc...)..

You need to fine tune some processes in the protocol recipe maybe including botanical bill or whether you macerate/time/strain, infuse, cook botanicals in the boiler, blend clean neutral, distill again, etc... small test still and small batch size will help a lot with recipe development...

[Rrmuf]

As a few here would ask: What do you have against cloudiness?

The juniper levels seem high. I probably use 2/3 of that.
My gin is always clear at 50%, often cloudy at 45%.
... usually cloudy at 15C and clear at 25C.
... and it tastes great!!!! .... So I'm told!

[Wozza]

As a few here would ask: What do you have against cloudiness?

In itself? Nothing. But...

I like my ouzo to be clear and then go cloudy when I add iced water. I like my vodka and my gin to be crystal clear. I like my whisky to be a light 'whisky colour'. I like my rum to be slightly darker. Does that affect the taste? No way. But if that's the way you like it and someone gives you a colourless liquid and asks you want you think it might be then you'd have a hard time differentiating between a brandy and a whisky and a rum.

If the guy wants crystal clear gin then that's what he wants.

[Rrmuf]

As a few here would ask: What do you have against cloudiness?

In itself? Nothing. But...

I like my ouzo to be clear and then go cloudy when I add iced water. I like my vodka and my gin to be crystal clear. I like my whisky to be a light 'whisky colour'. I like my rum to be slightly darker. Does that affect the taste? No way. But if that's the way you like it and someone gives you a colourless liquid and asks you want you think it might be then you'd have a hard time differentiating between a brandy and a whisky and a rum.

If the guy wants crystal clear gin then that's what he wants.

... Comment was made in jest; Pity you didn't see it that way but to each his own mate.

[Wozza]

As a few here would ask: What do you have against cloudiness?

In itself? Nothing. But...

I like my ouzo to be clear and then go cloudy when I add iced water. I like my vodka and my gin to be crystal clear. I like my whisky to be a light 'whisky colour'. I like my rum to be slightly darker. Does that affect the taste? No way. But if that's the way you like it and someone gives you a colourless liquid and asks you want you think it might be then you'd have a hard time differentiating between a brandy and a whisky and a rum.

If the guy wants crystal clear gin then that's what he wants.

... Comment was made in jest; Pity you didn't see it that way but to each his own mate.

I wasn't taking it too seriously. And my apologies if it was taken that way. But there are are a lot of comments that say 'hey, cloudy is fine'. And it is. I swear I am drinking a cloudy gin as I write this. But would I prefer it if it was crystal clear? Yeah, I would. We don't just drink with our taste buds. The booze has to tick a few personal preferences. And for a lot of people, that means clear for gin. If it's something that someone prefers then I think we should make an effort to help them get what they want.

And for me, it's the difference between having botanicals in the boiler or not. If they are not there, then I am very happy indeed with my crystal clear. If I include them, then it comes out cloudy, but I swear I find it very difficult to tell the difference in taste.

Each to his own...

[Rrmuf]

As a few here would ask: What do you have against cloudiness?

In itself? Nothing. But...

I like my ouzo to be clear and then go cloudy when I add iced water. I like my vodka and my gin to be crystal clear. I like my whisky to be a light 'whisky colour'. I like my rum to be slightly darker. Does that affect the taste? No way. But if that's the way you like it and someone gives you a colourless liquid and asks you want you think it might be then you'd have a hard time differentiating between a brandy and a whisky and a rum.

If the guy wants crystal clear gin then that's what he wants.

... Comment was made in jest; Pity you didn't see it that way but to each his own mate.

I wasn't taking it too seriously. And my apologies if it was taken that way. But there are are a lot of comments that say 'hey, cloudy is fine'. And it is. I swear I am drinking a cloudy gin as I write this. But would I prefer it if it was crystal clear? Yeah, I would. We don't just drink with our taste buds. The booze has to tick a few personal preferences. And for a lot of people, that means clear for gin. If it's something that someone prefers then I think we should make an effort to help them get what they want.

And for me, it's the difference between having botanicals in the boiler or not. If they are not there, then I am very happy indeed with my crystal clear. If I include them, then it comes out cloudy, but I swear I find it very difficult to tell the difference in taste.

Each to his own...

Peace mate! Let me know what you find out with boiler infusions. I did experiment, diluting with 43% neutral until it cleared and found it barely different, myself.

[RiseNShine]

Ingredient total for 50L distillery run
Per 50L - PER 1L
Juniper - 980g = 19.6g PER L
Corriander - 490g= 9.8g PER L
Licorice - 98g = 1.96g PER L
Orris Root - 10g = 0.2g PER L
Lemon peel - 39g = 0.78g PER L
Mugwort - 10g = 0.2g PER L (Previously listed this wrong)
Violet - 10g = 0.2g PER L
Hawthorn Berries - 98g = 1.96g PER L
Cinnamon - 49g = 0.98g PER L
Dandelion Root - 10g = 0.2g PER L

=35.88g botanicals per Litre

So I have 2 questions
1. which ingredient do you think is causing the louching? the Juniper, Corriander or Hawthorn Berries (ALL?)
2. do you think steeping for 24 hours at 98% (196 poof) before cutting to 50% (100proof) and adding to the boiler is a problem? should I steep in 50% (100 proof) instead for this period? I can not see how much impact this would have

1. Sum of the parts, you have a lot of oil producing botanicals and you are macerating which will result in a higher extraction of those oils
2. Yes, it could be contributing to the high oil extract. Id suggest doing the same botanical bill and cut points with no maceration and see how you find the product or cut more heads.

[Rrmuf]

On the maceration ABV: Not sure, so give it a go but I seem to recall Odin (perhaps in another forum) contemplating a range of 40% to 60% for macerating botanicals. Myself, I've only ever gone as high as 60% (for juniper berries only for first 12-24 hours) then dilute to 43% for the remainder of the botanicals (overnight). ... and it louches !.... and it tastes great!

The thought is that lower ABV yields a more mellow Gin, while the higher ABV results in a drier Gin.

.... I am curious what you find here, with 98% ABV , no maceration, etc.

[Mares]

The thought is that lower ABV yields a more mellow Gin, while the higher ABV results in a drier Gin.

Hi Rrmuf, when you say so, you are talking about ABV during maceration, or strength of drinkable gin after distillation?

[Rrmuf]

The thought is that lower ABV yields a more mellow Gin, while the higher ABV results in a drier Gin.

Hi Rrmuf, when you say so, you are talking about ABV during maceration, or strength of drinkable gin after distillation?

ABV during maceration.