How much neutral can you tame a gin with?

[tchib]

My gin making friends.
I made a mean gin and it was so delicious yet a little cloudy. So I diluted to 40% and tamed it with some neutral of the same strength, as prescribed by this fine forum.
Not only did it fix the clouds, it made it far more delicious, so I added a little more. I was nearly 50/50 gin and neutral before I stopped and the flavours only improved, allbeit more subtly.
How far can one go with this? Has anyone tried? I sadly have such a small gig I can't try it just yet. I am out of neutral and time. But is it possible to make a 'concentrate' and just tame it with many parts neutral? Example, 1:4 gin-neutral ratio, and it still be good? 1:6?? How far can you go? What would physically determine the limit?
Much blessings
T

[zed255]

I've read in a number of gin threads where member NZChris mentions making concentrated essences, so I'd say yes you can make a strong gin and adjust the flavour to taste with neutral. It would be a personal experience, so you'd have to develop your own recipe and ratios to suit your tastes. Your post alludes to the idea there is a point of limited return and ultimately a point where you negatively impact the final product. Only you can determine those points for yourself.

I've done similar with a cloudy rum and found the amount of neutral needed to lift the cloudiness did not impact the flavour, though I'm not sure it necessarily improve it.

[OtisT]

+1 to what Zed said.

Also, regarding the cloudy product: Gin is cloudy from the oils in it. At lower proof the oils start sticking together and form the clouds you can see. Increasing the proof to around 45% usually clears things right up, so you can eliminate the cloudiness w/o diluting the flavor.

Otis

[NZChris]

Industrially, it has been done up to 10 times strength.

I've only done 5 times my usual botanical bill. When diluting, it might stretch to 6 or 7 times to get rid of the louche. You need very good refluxed neutral for diluting as any flavors in it can dominate the finished gin.

[Archee72]

Read this and thought aha!!
500ml Odins @ 40% + 500mls fresh WPOSW @ 40%…..

None of the flavours of Odins reduced. Now I can stretch my Gin stocks out easily!
Thanks for sharing

[Hambone]

I’d say go as far as the flavor dictates.

[jonnys_spirit]

The more neutral you add in the less propensity for louching too! I just got into Gin though and have another batch macerating now so will experiment..

Cheers,
jonny

[Archee72]

Used 300ml of OEG mixed with 700mls of WPOSW and still no discernible loss of flavour. Happy days

[Rrmuf]

Great discussion here: I have only ever mixed up to maybe 20% of neutrals.... sounds like I can try alot further to eliminate louching.
+1 of 45% ABV ...it helps.

[tchib]

This topic is really starting to reveal what commercial ginmakers are getting away with. Imagine having a 100l pot still and being able to blend the results of one run with 10x the amount in ethanol to make nearly 1,000 liters of "craft" gin (allbeit lightly flavored)

[Demy]

I'm not a gin expert but I think it's a distillate with many ingredients and process variables so it allows you to play a lot, I think it requires a lot of experimentation ....

[NZChris]

This topic is really starting to reveal what commercial ginmakers are getting away with. Imagine having a 100l pot still and being able to blend the results of one run with 10x the amount in ethanol to make nearly 1,000 liters of "craft" gin (allbeit lightly flavored)

It is a trick that can be used to avoid import duties. The concentrate can be shipped cheaply, then diluted using locally produced neutral. Whether, or not, it's lightly flavored has nothing to with the method, it's a decision made by the distiller or the blender.

I've used it to make a large batch of gin essence when I didn't have much neutral. Once the neutral was made, it was kept in bulk at 95% and I could make up a bottle of gin whenever we needed one rather than having to make up and store several bottles of finished product. Even if I had wanted to bottle it all, I didn't have enough bottles.

[CoogeeBoy]

This topic is really starting to reveal what commercial ginmakers are getting away with. Imagine having a 100l pot still and being able to blend the results of one run with 10x the amount in ethanol to make nearly 1,000 liters of "craft" gin (allbeit lightly flavored)

I've used it to make a large batch of gin essence when I didn't have much neutral. Once the neutral was made, it was kept in bulk at 95% and I could make up a bottle of gin whenever we needed one rather than having to make up and store several bottles of finished product. Even if I had wanted to bottle it all, I didn't have enough bottles.

NZChris, I have thought about your making gin essence a lot.

May I ask if you would share a bit of info on what you are doing there? Are you making a super saturated maceration and then diluting that with neutral as you need it?

If so, presumably you are using, for example, 5 times as much botanicals per litre of neutral for your maceration.

I ask because I am intrigued by what Archie Rose does here where they have the concentrated flavours and you can make up your own flavour profile on a bottle by bottle basis.

[NZChris]

For a 5* essence, make a batch of gin exactly the same way you usually do, but multiply the botanical bill by 5.

[nadiawinget]

Some of the best gins to try are craft gins[https://boozehut.co.uk/craft-gin/], the botanicals they use in these gins are exquisite. My all-time favourite is Old Bakery Gin[https://boozehut.co.uk/old-bakery/]

[Rrmuf]

.... rather off-topic but thanks for sharing.

[Andrew_90]

For a 5* essence, make a batch of gin exactly the same way you usually do, but multiply the botanical bill by 5.

So having done that, how do you move the process forward? Do you use the essence much like a cordial? Put some in a bottle and add neutral until it is to your taste?

[NZChris]

For a 5* essence, make a batch of gin exactly the same way you usually do, but multiply the botanical bill by 5.

So having done that, how do you move the process forward? Do you use the essence much like a cordial? Put some in a bottle and add neutral until it is to your taste?

That's one way.

Sometimes I make up some to the ABV I want, then add four times the volume of the same ABV neutral.

If it louches at room temperature and I don't want it to, I do the same as I do for any gin that louches when proofed.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p7543415

If I want to add a fruit flavor from my cellar, I include it as a portion of the diluting spirit.

[Andrew_90]

[/quote]That's one way.

Sometimes I make up some to the ABV I want, then add four times the volume of the same ABV neutral.[/quote]

So from another post of your in effect you are diluting by 5X? The initial batch then another 4 times. Would this be a correct statement?

If this is the case then why not make the Gin 1/5th of the strength to start of with? So clearly I am missing something here.

I really like your idea of making the concentrate and am keen to explore this.

[NormandieStill]

If this is the case then why not make the Gin 1/5th of the strength to start of with? So clearly I am missing something here.

Then you only have to redistill a gin once and can store a smaller quantity and just mix it up when your drinking stock gets low.

Also I imagine you could do some subtle blending experiments with different essences.

[NZChris]

If this is the case then why not make the Gin 1/5th of the strength to start of with?

The answer to that questions is already in this thread.

[Andrew_90]

If this is the case then why not make the Gin 1/5th of the strength to start of with?

The answer to that questions is already in this thread.

Then I missed it, read again and missed it again. To stretch the Gin further?

[NZChris]

Then I missed it, read again and missed it again. To stretch the Gin further?

In that case, I didn't understand your question .... and I still don't.

[Sporacle]

I think Andrew is under the impression that you are using the essence like an individual shot of spirit and then diluting it with neutral every time you make a drink. Not actually realising that the essences are used to blend a finished bottle or bottles

[Andrew_90]

I think Andrew is under the impression that you are using the essence like an individual shot of spirit and then diluting it with neutral every time you make a drink. Not actually realising that the essences are used to blend a finished bottle or bottles

Exactly that.

[NZChris]

There's nothing to stop you making it up by the glass. I quite often make a 100ml sample of a new gin at the aimed for dilution, then experiment with how much neutral can be used to tame the louche or the flavor. The numbers gathered from the trials are then recorded and can be used to make up any amount I require.

Using the TTB tables, I find the weights of the essence, neutral and water needed to make 1 liter of finished gin at my desired ABV. Once those have been calculated, a bottle/demijohn/whatever can be filled on an accurate set of scales instead of using something like graduated glassware to get the required volumes. My glassware is too small to make up a liter bottle of anything so, if I'm going to be doing it more than a couple of times, it's easier to do the calculations once then make up bottles by weight every time.