Cuts concerns

[RockinRockies]

I've searched high and low. I've let whiskeys sit for 18-24 months with tee-p toasted oak from recycled staves, exactly according to protocol, and tight cuts. Boring.
Flat in the middle, simplicity that never got closer than third cousin to a great bourbon. Long finish but the flavors never really melded or developed nuance.

Was it delicious? Absolutely. But something just didn't add up. So here's what I'm struggling with, and from what I can tell, is a struggle many of us have encountered:

How can I develop a bourbon or spirit legitimately and noticably superior to the major commercial brands that are in the $50-$100 range? The only thing I can surmise is that
significantly looser cuts (but not anywhere near as awful as Jack Daniels, which I'd say is the most god awful swill ever created)
and time in full size barrels is what creates the necessary complexities we are accustomed to in "quintessential" bourbon and scotch.

I want to create a slightly cleaner product, but I want to hold on to the Indiana MGP style of high rye bourbons and the standard Kentucky bourbons. I'm a big fan of the Kentucky stuff. Not so much Tennessee, from what I've tasted. I'm starting to get actual barrels, minimum 15 gallons, because I've grown tired of oak sticks and tight cuts. This size is about the maximum I can justify because of the ridiculous volume. Heck, that's probably 11 gallons at 60%. It'll take me years to drink and share even that.

Where is the balance? This is the biggest obstacle I've encountered after these years in this hobby. I can't possibly know what it takes until I'm able to fill a full barrel but man that's more than a lifetime of booze. I'm not interested in that. So, where is the balance for complexity with quality, at a reasonable scale?

[Stonecutter]

The way I see it, an individual, hell even a team of dedicated hobbyists, could never touch the millions of man hours them big distilleries have poured into lab grade yeast development, mashing, fermentation, aging etc. We get our small bit of time to learn as much as we can with mostly rudimentary equipment and nearly zero hands on help. Sure the 15yr. French Oak Scotch is smooth and delicious but honestly, even in the 2+ years I’ve been at it (and maybe I’m just partial because it’s my own creation) I like the flavor profiles I’ve created using my small one gallon barrel and different grain bills more than the store bought stuff. I know I’m really not helping with your question directly. Use smaller barrels if you don’t want to wait so long between bottling. There have been some arguments against that route but it worked wonders for me and my bumbling methods. Whiskey 3 months in a one gallon barrel came out absolutely delicious. Beautiful color, strong vanilla flavor profile and it’s all my creation. It’s a one off Craft bottle of Whiskey that can never be exactly duplicated. Well worth $100+ to me. Don’t get discouraged. The fun is in the challenge!

[NZChris]

Try oak sticks and wide cuts. Choose cuts based on tasting blends, not individual jars or how it smells at the spout.

[Sporacle]

+1 on what Chris said, I am really new and find cuts hard. Finished a spirit run this morning and made three micro blends. Ended up taking a blend that I wouldn't of done had I tasted individual jars. Guess I'll find out how it went in 12 months

[RockinRockies]

Try oak sticks and wide cuts. Choose cuts based on tasting blends, not individual jars or how it smells at the spout.

Wide, as in, let's say my spirit run ends up with 4-5 gallons of quart jars, which is somewhere near typical for my spirit run. When I think I'm getting to the edges of heads/hearts and hearts/tails, I will fill pint jars.

I'll typically leave at least a gallon on heads side and 1.5 gallons on tails side. I think the mistake I've been making is tossing whole edge jars instead of taking percentages from the edge jars and full heads and tails jars. Would wider in your sense mean, heck, only discard the first half gallon and search around for another half gallon in tails?

The right amount of "wide" has been elusive for me so far.

My other attempt to visualize what I think you are saying is: almost like a bell curve of blending? Keep all the hearts and take smaller percentages of the beginning and ends of the run? So maybe 5% of my first heads jar that's tolerable, and work up in higher percentages to the full hearts cut and vice versa?

Seriously, after 4+ years of reading, and tinkering with probably too many recipes, I feel like I'm back at square one and more confused than ever

[RockinRockies]

Try oak sticks and wide cuts. Choose cuts based on tasting blends, not individual jars or how it smells at the spout.

Wide, as in, let's say my spirit run ends up with 4-5 gallons of quart jars, which is somewhere near typical for my spirit run. When I think I'm getting to the edges of heads/hearts and hearts/tails, I will fill pint jars.

I'll typically leave at least a gallon on heads side and 1.5 gallons on tails side. I think the mistake I've been making is tossing the entire edge jars instead of taking percentages from the edge jars. I haven't put any obvious full heads and tails jars in, but maybe I should test percentages. Would wider in your sense mean, heck, only discard the first half gallon and search around for another half gallon in tails? Those seems very wide for me but almost all my faints jars sit for at least a year and they are always outstandingly complex, darn near pleasant, minus the obvious funk.

The right amount of "wide" has been elusive for me so far.

My other attempt to visualize what I think you are saying is: almost like a bell curve of blending? Keep all the hearts and take smaller percentages of the beginning and ends of the run? So maybe 5% of my first heads jar that's tolerable, and work up in higher percentages to the full hearts cut and vice versa? Pull a few small sample tests working with different percentages until I find something desirable?

Seriously, after 4+ years of reading, and tinkering with probably too many recipes, I feel like I'm back at square one and more confused than ever

[NZChris]

I just mean wider than you have been doing.

I don’t go by numbers, even my own historic numbers. I make up a sample of the obvious hearts, taste it, then add to it from jars at each end until I identify the jars that are one too far.

[Twisted Brick]

Like you I've always aged in glass and tend to make conservative cuts. As such, I always try to keep each jar on either end that just missed the cut and drop a stick of oak in it in case it's needed down the line.

The hardest part, for me at least, has predicting how the spirit will change over time based on the aging method you're using. I recently filled my first (5gal) barrel and making cuts was much easier knowing that any mistakes might be ironed out with time.

[pablosky]

Seriously, after 4+ years of reading, and tinkering with probably too many recipes, I feel like I'm back at square one and more confused than ever
[/quote]


I think I understand what RockinRockies asks, and that is the million dollar question ... many of us need specific data for example: exact amount and type of distillate + type of wood + type of roasting + exact amount of wood + exact amount of time = taste similar to this or that whiskey ...
precise and concrete data of recipes and methods with proven results .....
as a more precise formula .... there must be some proven technique, I don't think the big distilleries submit everything to chance and improvised tests and always maintain their flavors and results.

perhaps those who possess these exact techniques do not share them.

[The Baker]

perhaps those who possess these exact techniques do not share them.

Maybe it is more an art than a science.

But where you are continually repeating the exact same procedure,
it comes down more to repeating the same formula and conditions,
the art part having already been done.

Though constant vigilance is needed even then.

Geoff

[Sporacle]

I'm am at the total other end to this I enjoy the unknown, I just finished a corn, barley and oats style Whiskey (it's mine I'm pretty sure I can call it that) it's made up of about 50 different things I have read on here and is aging with the same sort of ideas. I'm excited to see how it turns out, I'm not sure I want to try and replicate a 200 dollar bottle of Bourbon by stepping a recipe, what if mine tastes like crap. Basically it's mine and I'm proud I made it is my motto

This was in reply to the post above yours Geoff

[NZChris]

perhaps those who possess these exact techniques do not share them.

I don't share the amount of oak that I use because I found that mine varies between toasts, even if they were cut from the same log and toasted for the same temperature and time. It might be because they were done in different ovens with inaccurate temperature controllers, a different part of the log, more time in the weather?

I give a sample of a new toast the 'hurry up' to help me estimate the amount of it I have to use for that batch. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55301