Bite or burn appears after aging

[NormandieStill]

My first neutral was a pot-stilled birdwatchers and my fairly conservative cuts yielded a neutral which my wife taste-tested and confirmed to be free of any burn. some time later, when using it to make gin and liqueurs I noticed that there was a significant burn in the mouth from the final products and when I tasted the neutral, the burn was there. Being relatively new to distilling I assumed that my palate was developing and that I was now more sensitive to whatever was causing the burn which I had overlooked when blending.

More recently I made a gumbalhead based on a wheat / oat all-grain which was incredibly smooth straight off the spout. This was confirmed by two other tasters who were all surprised at how smooth it was given it was proofed down to 56%. This was back in early July. The other night I poured myself a glass and was quite surprised to find it had developed a burn, similar to my first batch of neutral. I did consciously include some early tails in this one though.

So my questions are: Are the tails in these two mutating over time into something hot? Is this was is referred to as "sugar bite"? Will it age back out again if left white? Or should I oak it to provide the necessary precursors and catalysts? Or more scarily, is this a consequence of something in my method (scary because it could be quite hard to pinpoint)?

For information, both were aged in glass with natural corks in a fairly temperature stable environment (inside the house, max temperature swings of 5C / 24hr).

[NZChris]

What ABV are you tasting it at?

[NormandieStill]

30-55% depending on context (drinking). When I make my cuts I tend to dilute to around 30%.

[NZChris]

If you find it nasty at 30%, you're in real trouble.

Just because you have the luxury of having spirit at 55%, doesn't mean it's clever to drink it at that proof. You can expect some 'bite' at that proof. It's a warning that the proof is high enough to cause cellular damage in your mouth and esophagus that can lead to consequences that I'm sure most of us want to avoid.

[NormandieStill]

That I understand, what I find strange is not that there's bite at 55%, but that there wasn't bite at 55% a month ago. And that the same was true for the first neutral I made. The first neutral had some bite in a sweet liqueur at ~30%. I confess I've not tried proofing down the gumbalhead further to see where the line is. But it's the behaviour over time that I find strange.

In terms of long term damage, I appreciate the warning. My alcohol consumption is pretty low by most standards outside of AA. My two most interesting commercial spirits are cask strength single malts and we've had the oldest of those bottles for over 7 years now. That being said, I'll pull the abv down a little on the gumbalhead and see what happens.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Short answer: Leave the bottle open a dash for a few days or put it in a larger bottle with more headspace. Air is your friend. It will take some time (weeks/months) but it will get back to good.

Longer answer: Spirit straight off the is very chemically active. Depending on the conditions it will take time to get to a point of chemical stasis. Anytime conditions change - adding water, more air in the bottle, etc, the stasis will be upset. While the spirit is not in stasis the flavor isn't the best. I've found that air and headspace in a container kills the burn/youngness of a spirit. I believe it has to do with oxygination of alcohol/aldehydes. It's why I believe that airing our the heads has a second effect that helps with removing the bite. When I started storing my spirits in larger bottles with more headspace I noticed a decrease in burn.

[8Ball]

Short answer: Leave the bottle open a dash for a few days or put it in a larger bottle with more headspace. Air is your friend. It will take some time (weeks/months) but it will get back to good.

Longer answer: Spirit straight off the is very chemically active. Depending on the conditions it will take time to get to a point of chemical stasis. Anytime conditions change - adding water, more air in the bottle, etc, the stasis will be upset. While the spirit is not in stasis the flavor isn't the best. I've found that air and headspace in a container kills the burn/youngness of a spirit. I believe it has to do with oxygination of alcohol/aldehydes. It's why I believe that airing our the heads has a second effect that helps with removing the bite. When I started storing my spirits in larger bottles with more headspace I noticed a decrease in burn.

Great response! Saving this nugget of sage advice.

[Oatmeal]

Just because you have the luxury of having spirit at 55%, doesn't mean it's clever to drink it at that proof. You can expect some 'bite' at that proof. It's a warning that the proof is high enough to cause cellular damage in your mouth and esophagus that can lead to consequences that I'm sure most of us want to avoid.

Great reminder, thanks!

And thanks for your question normandiestill.

And thanks to single malt yinzer for a nice nugget of info...

Distilling: always aiming for a better drop in a safer manner!

[still_stirrin]

…what I find strange is not that there's bite at 55%, but that there wasn't bite at 55% a month ago…

Perhaps, you simply didn’t notice the “burn” when fresh off the spout because your senses were numbed from the heads, or volatile solvents in the spirit. Then, after aging a month (did you air the spirit for 24 to 36 hours?) your senses have “healed” to the point you notice the alcohol strength at 55%ABV, which is high for an undiluted sample.

…And that the same was true for the first neutral I made. The first neutral had some bite in a sweet liqueur at ~30%. I confess I've not tried proofing down the gumbalhead further to see where the line is.

But it's the behaviour over time that I find strange.

More likely, your problem is how you make your cuts.

If you’re getting a “bite” or “burn” in a spirit at 30%ABV, you’re making sloppy cuts. So, when collecting on the spirit run, collect into at least a dozen jars, preferably 18 to 24 jars. That will give you a finer comb to select from.

And always let the jars air out for a day before trying to make the cuts. That way the volatile solvents will evaporate before you put them into your “keeper jar”.
ss

[NormandieStill]

Perhaps, you simply didn’t notice the “burn” when fresh off the spout because your senses were numbed from the heads, or volatile solvents in the spirit. Then, after aging a month (did you air the spirit for 24 to 36 hours?) your senses have “healed” to the point you notice the alcohol strength at 55%ABV, which is high for an undiluted sample.

Fresh off the spout was a bad turn of phrase. I'd been drinking it (at higher than recommended proof ) for a while. And I wasn't alone in trying it.

More likely, your problem is how you make your cuts.

If you’re getting a “bite” or “burn” in a spirit at 30%ABV, you’re making sloppy cuts. So, when collecting on the spirit run, collect into at least a dozen jars, preferably 18 to 24 jars. That will give you a finer comb to select from.

And always let the jars air out for a day before trying to make the cuts. That way the volatile solvents will evaporate before you put them into your “keeper jar”.
ss

This is exactly how I make my cuts. I suspect that my first neutral was indeed a victim of bad cuts (it was my first T+T). My gumbalhead deliberately includes some early tails because of the flavours I found there. I'll try and put the bottle away somewhere (it's got some good headspace now) and let it age a good while and see what happens. For the record, I generally collect in 200-250ml quantities in up to 24 jars from a spirit run (20 - 25L in the boiler).

[Saltbush Bill]

And always let the jars air out for a day before trying to make the cuts. That way the volatile solvents will evaporate before you put them into your “keeper jar”.

Good advice SS.
A day is commonly quoted, try longer, 48 hours or even longer, the little bit lost to the Angels is more than made up for by quality of the end product IMO.

[rubberduck71]

Some on this site will say it is "cheating," but a little bit of glycerin (like a cap-full, which I would guess is ~25 mL per 750 mL) will take some of the bite off if you don't have the time to wait.

But as said above, airing right after distilling & proper air head-space during aging is indeed the proper technique. There are shortcuts everywhere in this hobby, but quality suffers.

Duck

[Mutts]

The response from Single Malt Yinzer makes a lot of sense…..
Something to ponder……
I have one or the “Vindulge” wine aerators which is made to pour wine through for aeration. Replaces decanting.
Would it perhaps be wise to run finished product through that to aid in aerating?

[Boozewaves]

The response from Single Malt Yinzer makes a lot of sense…..
Something to ponder……
I have one or the “Vindulge” wine aerators which is made to pour wine through for aeration. Replaces decanting.
Would it perhaps be wise to run finished product through that to aid in aerating?

yes that was an interesting post from S.M.Y

if the aerator is made from alcohol safe materials it would be worth trying it .In the images of wine aerators when I searched it seems some are glass which would be fine and then some are plastic which would not be good for high abv drink

[NormandieStill]

There's now some headspace in the bottle so I've been giving it a good shake every few days and taking the cork out to allow an air exchange. I'll test again in a week or so and see what's changed.

[squigglefunk]

sounds like heads in the cut, not tails

[still_stirrin]

sounds like heads in the cut, not tails

Exactly my thoughts too.

Tails taste “funky” (for those of you who can’t use appropriate descriptors). Tails taste “dirty” or “husky”, like cardboard, or often called, “wet dog hair”. Tails will add an interesting complexity when the spirit is aged on wood, simply because the wood affects the long chain proteins, making them flavorful (somewhat).

But heads give you the “burn” due to the solvents in them. Ketones, such as acetone, contribute that “nasty, burny” taste to your bud —> taste buds. Also, higher alcohols can come over in the late heads too. Those, if excessive, will contribute to the headache/hangover.

Good clean ethanol tastes slightly sweet. And it won’t burn your tongue unless your running a purity of 60%ABV or higher. It will, however, warm your chest as you swallow. So, caution is in order, because even though it doesn’t burn, or taste bad, it can damage you esophagus tissue.

Always, be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

[Saltbush Bill]

Good clean ethanol tastes slightly sweet

'
I guess different people perceive things differently, any form of heads or fores has a sweet smell to me, I can sniff it out a mile off.
Its easier to smell in a good neutral spirit though, it really stands out there.
I don't get a sweet smell from clean hearts.
I do get wet dog in tails, old wet moldy carpet, musty smells, old wet newspaper maybe.
Some people don't smell those things in tails I'm told.

[still_stirrin]

Good clean ethanol tastes slightly sweet

'
I guess different people perceive things differently, any form of heads or fores has a sweet smell to me, I can sniff it out a mile off.
Its easier to smell in a good neutral spirit though, it really stands out there.
I don't get a sweet smell from clean hearts.
I do get wet dog in tails, old wet moldy carpet, musty smells, old wet newspaper maybe.
Some people don't smell those things in tails I'm told.

SBB, I was referring to the taste of the clean hearts, not the smell. In my hearts, there is almost no smell at all. And I agree, some of the late heads do have a sweet, estery aroma, probably from the acetate constituent.

Certainly the senses of taste and smell are related. But if you’re sensitive in your testing, you can discern the nuances. To me, clean ethanol does have a slightly sweet taste, not sugary sweet or even like candy, just a very soft sweetness. It is very pleasing, not harsh or even hot, unless the proof is above 115, or more.
ss

[NormandieStill]

I don't disagree with the idea (although I was pretty conservative with the cuts), but again what I find strange is that the burn has appeared over time. I did a test blend when blending originally and then for a good few weeks, if not a month or so I tested the final blend, and not just alone so I have two other people who reported no burn whatsoever. And then after some time it arrived... and seems to have arrived suddenly. I tried it again the other day, proofed down to around 35% and the burn was still there so it's not a "cask strength" thing, it's a "bad stuff in my drink" thing.

Just intrigued as to what the chemistry might be that's (seemingly) causing my clean alcohol to get headsy over time.

I've found thus far that tails also burn, but differently to heads. This may well just be me, but I find them bitter and occasionally there's a little burn which is more on the palate than on the tongue.

[NZChris]

I don't know of any chemistry that could make heads components appear in a jar, over time, all by itself.

I'm guessing it's white, but I don't think you said.

Are you sure everything is correctly labeled?

I've been letting some mates have a taste from a hip flask of white dog UJSSM for a few weeks now. Sometimes they say they can't believe how smooth it is, other times they say it has a burn the last one didn't have. The flask has only been filled from one bottle. I suspect the difference is how much beer they've drunk before tasting it.

[rOjOr]

A good and often overlooked point. There is an objective element to taste but there is also (and always) a subjective element.

So with regard to the original post, not only are there physical/chemical differences in a spirit straight out of the still compared to later but your frame of mind will be different: from tired at the end of the process/excited at having just completed a creative act vs. relaxed after a period of disengagement.

[Bryan1]

Could be way off the mark here but do you use a SS still and if so is there any copper in the vapour path ???? as if using a SS still with no copper in the path will let all the sulphides thru unchecked and that in it's self will cause a burning sensation

[NormandieStill]

It's white. And labelled, I've not been sipping from the feints jar (which does smell good I must admit!). I'm certain the burn is new. And doesn't come and go. The still is SS but I've got a big old wad of copper mesh in the vapour (and a copper condenser) and running on a strip + spirit protocol so everything gets at least two passes through the mesh.

I'm prepared to accept that it's my cuts and there's some heads in there, but this puts into doubt my ability to make cuts if I'm having to plan for invisible heads!

[squigglefunk]

mm mm the sweet burn of cellular damage mm mm good! For sure booze "mutates" over time, it's called aging lol... something smooth that then becomes hot? It could be the sugar bite coming out as it ages? I dunno, I know it has a cool name but I'm pretty sure "birdwatchers" is a straight sugar shine? I don't think most gin makers use sugar shine for their gin and yes you will taste the "neutral" spirit in a gin eh? Smooth, non-burning, high-proof booze is a neat trick! I age mine with paper towels covering them and I store them outside to get a lot of temperature swing, hot/cold/hot for days/weeks, it's my patented hillybilly rapid aging technique - it will take a whole lot of the headsy bite and smoof it right out. Yeah you do lose some to evaporation but a lot of it is the nastier stuff.

[Bryan1]

I use TPW for making my neutral and this year I've decided to do it a different way, totally different infact. Rather than just strip the wash and do a spirit run over 4 plates and a 500mm packed section the first strip was over 4 plates and the second strip will be over 4 plates again. Then i'll do the final spirit run over 4 plates and the packed section.

I started with 120 litres of TPW so it will be interesting to see what i endup with by going this method. Now with last years batch the folk that tried it reckon it was the best tasting nothing they had in a long time or if ever.

So if the goal is to make a neutral or a nothing the more times run over plates will make that nothing just so much better.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

what I find strange is that the burn has appeared over time.

It's not uncommon. I don't know the exact chemistry behind it.I already posted what I think it is.

Let it age out more. It will come around. Give it a few weeks. Time is (normally) your friend.

It's not bad cuts, it's not magic, it's normal. Airing it out will help. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong.

[NormandieStill]

So. Since I posted I've been giving the bottle a little shake from time-to-time (Buccaneer Bob suggested this for his white rum and it seemed a reasonable idea, a sort of low key ultrasound). There's a good amount of head space in there so plenty of space for O2 to be absorbed from.

And?

Well it's still not "smooth", but it has softened considerably from where it was when I first posted. Proofed down (very roughly) to around 45% it has less prickle than my recently acquired bottled of Maker's Mark (I wanted a reference commercial bourbon that was easily available everywhere and that generally seemed to be deemed "acceptable"). I'll keep shaking occasionally, and keep testing to see where it's at.