Sourdough starter

[SuperDavid]

I had a thought the other day at work.
I'm a baker and we do alot of sour dough breads.
I was wondering if any of you have tried using a sour dough yeast starter for fermenting? we have a rye meal starter and a white flour starter with no commercial yeast in it and the culture it's self is about 7 years old.
could there be any flavour or fermenting advantage to using it?

[Dnderhead]

yes once i have one ferment going I just rack off and add new mash on top.no new yeast.I think others do as well

[SuperDavid]

so thats a wild strain from sourdough?

[Dnderhead]

most 'wiled" yeast I thank is mixed but over time whatever survive is the winner! I was reading a report about that , and said no such thing
to day, that just about all yeast is cultivated , once you establish the culcher, it is no longer "wiled"

[Dnderhead]

I thank that it starts out as a mix but over time only the best/fittest survive ( mine started 40-50 years ago off grain and still going)
I was reading a artical about that to day , it said no such thing as wild yeast to day that most all has bin cultivated. and if not its done as
I did (it survives in the wine tanks /air etc even though it says the "this wine is made with wild yeast"

[SuperDavid]

This rye starter we have was made from rye meal, water and onion pieces. The onion pieces I guess are the source of the wild yeast.
The starter is 7 years old and has only had more rye flour and water mixed through it every day for 7 years. does that count as wild? or are you saying because we have fed that same culture for so long that it's no longer wild?

either way, since the yeast has been feeding on rye for so long, do think it would be well suited to a rye mash/ujsm style ferment?

[Dnderhead]

becomes you kept it and "cultivated" it is no longer wiled, that is how they git the yeast that you buy . they go to vineyards etc and git them,
culture in big vats that is sterile, and the save some of the original to establish a new batch if needed, (yeast can change over time
( if you look there named after vineyards etc ) ( they are starting to "genetically alter" yeast /enzymes for fuel )

[muckanic]

either way, since the yeast has been feeding on rye for so long, do think it would be well suited to a rye mash/ujsm style ferment?

Depends what is in it. The sourness comes from lactic bacteria. The CO2 rising ability could be coming from either bacteria or yeast. Bacteria alone would most likely not work in an alcoholic ferment, as they would conk out from the acidity long before all the carbohydrate was fermented. So there is your first test - see if the culture can get the gravity down to an appropriate level. Secondly, some lactic bugs can ferment and indeed prefer starch to sugar, which could be a small efficiency plus in UJSM-style, unmashed washes. On the other hand, the culture may not work so well for room temperature mashing/fermenting on the grain, as the pH could become too low for efficient starch conversion. Folks trying to mash with backset face roughly the same problem. Finally, there is a possibility you may not get very much sourness at all, as lactic bugs generally like heat and/or prolonged ferments, and could be out-competed by the yeast at normal ferment temperatures. What temperature do you do your dough rising at, and how long does the dough take to reach microbe-killing temperature in the oven?

[SuperDavid]

either way, since the yeast has been feeding on rye for so long, do think it would be well suited to a rye mash/ujsm style ferment?

Depends what is in it. The sourness comes from lactic bacteria. The CO2 rising ability could be coming from either bacteria or yeast. Bacteria alone would most likely not work in an alcoholic ferment, as they would conk out from the acidity long before all the carbohydrate was fermented. So there is your first test - see if the culture can get the gravity down to an appropriate level. Secondly, some lactic bugs can ferment and indeed prefer starch to sugar, which could be a small efficiency plus in UJSM-style, unmashed washes. On the other hand, the culture may not work so well for room temperature mashing/fermenting on the grain, as the pH could become too low for efficient starch conversion. Folks trying to mash with backset face roughly the same problem. Finally, there is a possibility you may not get very much sourness at all, as lactic bugs generally like heat and/or prolonged ferments, and could be out-competed by the yeast at normal ferment temperatures. What temperature do you do your dough rising at, and how long does the dough take to reach microbe-killing temperature in the oven?

there is no set temp that the dough starts rising at. Because it's a bulk ferment dough it will usually get atleast an hours rest before it's divided and then it would easily be another hour before it's going in the oven. within the first hour it is very active. couldn't tell you what temp it starts moving at...I don't have anything to read the temp with at work. We tend to go by feel there.
microbe killing temp in the oven....no 100% sure there either. I'd say within 15minutes of being in the oven the heat has killed everything.

I might have to nick another 20lt bucket from work and see if I can get a ferment of some description going to see how it handles it.

[Dnderhead]

just git some hole grain flour add water keep worm, it should start. but when it gits skunky do not throw it out.