Barrel Aging Cheap Scotch

[StillGate]

I have a once-used 5 gallon barrel (Whiskey) that I want to use for 5 gallons of cheap Scotch. Like $15/bottle Scotch. Has anyone done this? I was thinking of 5-10 year aging. Will this turn it into a $100 bottle of Scotch? I also was toying with building a slow rocker for the aging stand to simulate "at sea" conditions for a quicker age. Any advice appreciated!

[jonnys_spirit]

Try it but I think making your own is even cheaper than $15/bottle!

I think keeping a slow rocker going for 5-10 years is going to be a little rough with maintenance...

Cheers,
j

[Ben]

Install the barrel in a rocking chair

I don't think it works, cheap scotch can be well aged... it can be the barrels that the master blended found "unfit" for whatever they were after. It can be inferior grain, etc.

Cheap scotch is also usually at the floor, 40%, much too weak for barreling.

If your going to lose 10 years, and a barrel why put in anything but the best you can?

[StillGate]

Install the barrel in a rocking chair

I don't think it works, cheap scotch can be well aged... it can be the barrels that the master blended found "unfit" for whatever they were after. It can be inferior grain, etc.

Cheap scotch is also usually at the floor, 40%, much too weak for barreling.

If your going to lose 10 years, and a barrel why put in anything but the best you can?

5 gallons of $100/bottle Scotch is $2500. I am not looking to spend this much. And $100/bottle Scotch is good without additional aging. Any suggestions for a under $20/bottle Scotch that would benefit from additional aging?

[StillGate]

Try it but I think making your own is even cheaper than $15/bottle!

I think keeping a slow rocker going for 5-10 years is going to be a little rough with maintenance...

Cheers,
j

If I could legally distill, I would!

[jonnys_spirit]

I certainly wouldn't recommend any rule breaking...

You'll want your barrel proof to be somewhere between 110-130 proof depending on what you want from the oak.

On the other hand - when you ferment your own and remove the water (not distill nudge nudge lol) you have much more unique product you can't get in any likker store!

Don't sell, don't tell...

Try it with some higher proof likker and put some charred and/or toasted oak into a jug with it... Before you do a whole barrel of store bought. Let it sit for a year or four?

Cheers!
-j

[StillGate]

I certainly wouldn't recommend any rule breaking...

You'll want your barrel proof to be somewhere between 110-130 proof depending on what you want from the oak.

On the other hand - when you ferment your own and remove the water (not distill nudge nudge lol) you have much more unique product you can't get in any likker store!

Don't sell, don't tell...

Try it with some higher proof likker and put some charred and/or toasted oak into a jug with it... Before you do a whole barrel of store bought. Let it sit for a year or four?

Cheers!
-j

I do like the way you think! Not sure what flavor, if any, I would lose if I proof it up with Everclear. If only the alcohol goes to the angels while aging, I would think the flavor would re-concentrate once the proof goes back down. Not sure how it works. Or conversely could I add Everclear (or a similar Scotch) when I bottle it in 10 years?

[Ben]

Look for white dog to age, buffalo trace makes one perfect for this. There are others.

Everclear gets you alcohol, no flavor. Think of it like "watering down" the flavor.

[The Baker]

I think keeping a slow rocker going for 5-10 years is going to be a little rough with maintenance...

Doesn't sound like a problem to me...

Geoff

[Oldvine Zin]

Just make your own and age it

Stay safe
OVZ

[tombombadil]

Just make your own and age it

Stay safe
OVZ

+1

150# of malt, yeast and water is like $300-$400?

[still_stirrin]

Why not buy cheap whiskey and redistill it (up to cask entry proof) and age it in the once used cask? After 5 years, the product will be less expensive than the cheap scotch and if you make your cuts right, it’ll produce a better spirit.

The “boat idea” is crazy. You obviously don’t appreciate what “time on wood” means. Focus on making a good spirit to put into the cask first. That’s where your best product originates. Then you just need to be patient. Time will do the rest.
ss

[StillGate]

I don't know how to distill. I have no distillation equipment. Not to mention it is illegal. For me to take a chance on prison, ramp up to where I have a clue about distilling, distill, work through the learning curve, and then put it in a barrel for 5 years to maybe find out if I made something worth drinking is not palatable at the moment. I simply want to try my hand at barrel aging and start with something that will appreciate with age.

I have been reading about "at sea" aging. Jefferson's Ocean uses this method and I have seen others use this method. I am not too big on it though. I have time. I am happy to let it sit for 5-10 years (or more) in the barrel (without rocking). I am very patient!

[jonnys_spirit]

Five gallons is about 25 750ml bottles. Plan for some top up as the angels take their share and you sample. 110-130 proof if you can find it and proof it down when you bottle. Once you’re a couple years in you could bottle 1/3 and top it up with fresh to keep it going.

Cheers!
-j

[Ben]

Since you are working with some limitations try this: Order a 2L barrel from whoever, get 3 750s of whatever cheap stuff you like. Fill it, save the leftovers for top up. Sample it once a week. This will give you a prelude to what your in for. It won't be the same as a 5 gallon barrel for 10 years, but my guess is your 5 gallon barrel is going to be empty from angels well before 10 years is up anyway. You might get 2-3 years out of your 5 gallon before you start running into issues. You could try the Solara method as mentioned by others here. If you want to barrel for 10 years you need to be filling at least a full barrel, anything smaller is going to have excessive evaporation and far too much wood. You can order full barrels from Scottish distilleries.


This is going to come across harsh, I don't mean it that way. There is a point though:

A "$100" bottle of scotch isn't good or expensive because it's been in a barrel for a long time. There is a lot more that goes into good whiskey than putting under proof bottom shelf liquor store garbage into a tiny barrel and letting it sit. Implying that is an insult to the craftsmen who dedicate themselves to making liquor worth drinking. In a good Scottish distillery you will have at a minimum a master distiller, and master blender. Both will have decades of experience, the blender will have hundreds, or thousands, sometimes millions of barrels (Johnny Walker/Diageo's empire) to choose from to create their flavor. Even the single barrel selections you can get aren't just some random barrel, they are hand selected, chosen from huge lots because they present something worth drinking. Not every barrel makes this cut, not every barrel is good. Thats why they blend, remember a "single malt" means it is a malt whiskey that comes from a single distillery, it is a blend of barrels. If they get a barrel that just isn't up to snuff they blend a little at a time in, until its gone.

[still_stirrin]

… Not to mention it is illegal. For me to take a chance on prison, ramp up to where I have a clue about distilling, distill, work through the learning curve, and then put it in a barrel for 5 years to maybe find out if I made something worth drinking is not palatable at the moment.

Hmmmm, read the website for a while and you’ll soon realize that most of us are also in the same place —> “where it is still illegal to distill”. But, this hobby continues to grow and enforcement has shifted to the illegal “producers for resale”, meaning the moonshiners who avoid paying taxes. After all, that’s really what the Feds are after —> your money.

… I simply want to try my hand at barrel aging and start with something that will appreciate with age.

”Breathing” is something that you’ll appreciate with age. A few cask aged (finished) bottles of store-bought whiskey will be something you’ll appreciate when it’s gone. Invest your money where you see fit. But, think wisely about where you invest your time.

… I have been reading about "at sea" aging. Jefferson's Ocean uses this method and I have seen others use this method. I am not too big on it though. I have time. I am happy to let it sit for 5-10 years (or more) in the barrel (without rocking). I am very patient!

Awe … the innocense of youth. Keep reading and you’ll gain more than you can “pour from a bottle”.
ss

[StillGate]

OK well you guys are for sure raining on my parade! Now I am re-thinking the whole thing. We usually get 15 or 18 year old Glen Fiddich which my wife loves every couple/few months . The hope was to mimic that by barrel aging cheaper stuff but it sounds like I am better off to continue to spend the $100 or so a bottle. I barrel age wine that I make so I have barrels to use which was 1/2 the attraction to this foray. Not that I would use an already used wine barrel but the distillery I get them from had a 5 gallon barrel that I got but never used for anything it is itching to be filled with something.

I do want to start distilling though I will have to look into that more. A friend of mine had a bad batch of wine that he made a simple stove-top still using an old pot and ended up making a decent brandy out of it. And my wife already asked me to make her a 100% rye if/when I do.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

You ain't gonna save money by making it. It's a hobby, hobbies will always find a way to make you spend more than you're creating. But the pride and knowledge is what you gain.

[NormandieStill]

I do want to start distilling though I will have to look into that more. A friend of mine had a bad batch of wine that he made a simple stove-top still using an old pot and ended up making a decent brandy out of it. And my wife already asked me to make her a 100% rye if/when I do.

If your wife is already on-board with the idea then you're most of the way there. I got more than a few raised eyebrows and questions about cost and time investment... and until the other day when she finally did a head-to-head comparison of our "house" gin against an high-quality commercial offering, I think she remained somewhat bemused. Now I'm getting requests and there's a certain impatience about when the next batch of neutral and thus gin will be happening!

Regarding your original idea, if you really want to have a play, maybe take just one or two bottles and break up a barrel that's served it's time to make some pieces to put in a glass jar with the whisky. Red wine soaked oak might add some interesting finishing notes and the fresh oak on the outside (with perhaps a little scorching to add some char and / or toasting, might not miraculuously transform a cheap whisky, but might give you a jumpstart on ageing ideas when you start producing your own.

[StillGate]

You ain't gonna save money by making it. It's a hobby, hobbies will always find a way to make you spend more than you're creating. But the pride and knowledge is what you gain.

Oh yeah I am well aware of this. I have been homebrewing beer and wine for 25 years. I just want to do it for the thrill of making my own stuff and not being dependent on over-priced store bought stuff.

[StillGate]

Purely out of idle curiosity , does anyone happen to know where I can get 100% Rye LME that actually has it in stock?

[StillGate]

Question: Can you make 100% corn whiskey using nothing but 100% corn sugar?

[still_stirrin]

Question: Can you make 100% corn whiskey using nothing but 100% corn sugar?

It’s dextrose … a sugar made from corn. It is very fermentable but has little flavor when fermented. So, it will not have the corn flavor of a corn whiskey, just the “sizzle” of a sugar wash. Nice try.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

100% sugar would be a sugar wash and typically used in a neutral spirit.

Check out the tried and true recipe section. UJSSM is a sugar wash / corn based recipe very much worth the effort.

Cheers!
-j

[Ben]

OK well you guys are for sure raining on my parade! Now I am re-thinking the whole thing. We usually get 15 or 18 year old Glen Fiddich which my wife loves every couple/few months . The hope was to mimic that by barrel aging cheaper stuff but it sounds like I am better off to continue to spend the $100 or so a bottle. I barrel age wine that I make so I have barrels to use which was 1/2 the attraction to this foray. Not that I would use an already used wine barrel but the distillery I get them from had a 5 gallon barrel that I got but never used for anything it is itching to be filled with something.

Don't give up yet! Used red wine barrels? Get yourself a decent quality 750 and chuck it in to one of those, taste it routinely or two you might be really surprised. Most commercial distilleries are finishing in sherry or wine casks for weeks or months, not years. There are some good scotches that hit right around the $35-$50 mark... Auchentoshan 12 is also lightly peated, finish it in a red wine cask and you may fall in love! If you are just finishing you don't need to fill the barrel all the way, just beware the red wine intensity might be pretty extreme if you put this under your rocker

[still_stirrin]

Purely out of idle curiosity, does anyone happen to know where I can get 100% Rye LME that actually has it in stock?

Here’s a link for you: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69585

As a long-time homebrewer, you probably well understand the difficulties associated with mashing a high rye malt recipe, right? That’s no doubt why you’re asking about an extract solution. Sorry, you’re just going to have to “dive into the deep end and swim”.

And when mashing a high rye recipe, I strongly suggest a glucan rest and/or glucan reducing enzymes to minimize the “stickiness”. Otherwise, your lautering will be very frustrating (been there … done that).
ss

[StillGate]

Purely out of idle curiosity, does anyone happen to know where I can get 100% Rye LME that actually has it in stock?

Here’s a link for you: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69585

As a long-time homebrewer, you probably well understand the difficulties associated with mashing a high rye malt recipe, right? That’s no doubt why you’re asking about an extract solution. Sorry, you’re just going to have to “dive into the deep end and swim”.

And when mashing a high rye recipe, I strongly suggest a glucan rest and/or glucan reducing enzymes to minimize the “stickiness”. Otherwise, your lautering will be very frustrating (been there … done that).
ss

Ha ha yes you pegged me. I have done all-grain but it is a PITA with no discernable difference in the final product (for beer) so I just do partial mashes. I am wary of making oatmeal. And I have never done a 100% Rye. 50/50 Rye/Corn is probably better.

Thanks for the link!

[still_stirrin]

I have done all-grain but it is a PITA with no discernable difference in the final product (for beer) so I just do partial mashes.

Well, if you can’t “discern the difference” between an all grain mash and a partial mash, then you’re probably not “doing it right”. When using extracts, you’re at the hands of the manufacture’s discretion, or the ingredients/recipe they used to make the extract. When you create your own all grain recipe, you’re the “artist of the painting”. It’s the flavors you’ve chosen to add and how you exploit the character of each grain to give you a true “signature brew”.

… I am wary of making oatmeal…

Actually, oats aren’t that bad to work with. Just don’t try to add too much to the recipe. I use oats (flaked quick oats from the grocery store) to add texture and help smooth the flavors from the other grains. Oats is like an “integrator” where it makes a smoother transition from one flavor or texture to another. Taste-wise, oats is quite benign, with a subtle flavor. But keep in mind that oats has some beta glucans (not near as much as rye) and some proteins (like wheat). So, when adding either of those grains to oats, you need to use the right proportions to keep it all balanced to the finished product.

… And I have never done a 100% Rye. 50/50 Rye/Corn is probably better.

Whew, a 100% rye malt grist would be extremely challenging to lauter, even with glucan reducing enzymes. Your runoff will be pencil-lead thin with a thick syrupy consistency. Even rice hulls won’t make it any easier.

And corn is also a tough one to work with. The grain bed in a lauter tun for corn needs plenty of “fluff” like barley malt husks or rice hulls to keep the sparge water filtering through. Corn meal is “pastey” and can gum up your mash tun. I’ve had to stir it up during runoff just to keep the lautering progressing. I highly recommend a shallow lauter tun for both corn and rye malt sparging.

Doing a 50:50 rye:corn recipe will “eat your lunch”. Combining the sticky grain bed of a high corn recipe with the syrupy, glue-like wort from a high rye recipe will create a nightmare for you.

I would do a 50:50 rye:barley malt recipe and a 50:50 corn:barley malt recipe and ferment them together. The malted barley will help mash both of the other grains and it will improve the product’s flavor in the end. The sweetness from the corn will be evident and the spiciness from the rye malt will be evident too. Plus, you’ll have a nice “single malt” character from the barley malt to fit nicely with the other flavors.

And, if you wanted to “smooth the transition” of the flavors, you could add up to 10% flaked quick oats to either, or both, of the mashes. However, I wouldn’t add more oats than that, preferring to keep them around 15% total.

Have fun. Remember … you’ve got lots of time to work on this, right?
ss

[rubberduck71]

I have to admit, I cheated & used Yellow Label Angel Yeast on most of my A/G mashes over the last year, including a high rye CROW bourbon where I reversed the corn & rye ratios. Well, I guess that would just be considered a straight up rye since it was well over 51% of the grain bill.

It's everything I can do to keep my paws off of it 4 months after jarring up & oaking. Good news is that I also did a sugarhead on it! But we're getting off main topic now...

Back on the rails! Bearded & Bored (yeah, yeah I know -- recommending YouTubers is sort of frowned upon in these forums...) did an episode where he took a store bought bottle of Popcorn Moonshine & barrel aged it. Time is your friend on that type of project. Just make sure there's no leaks in the barrel before you fill it & make sure you fill it all the way to reduce the angel's share.

[Ben]

Ha ha yes you pegged me. I have done all-grain but it is a PITA with no discernable difference in the final product (for beer) so I just do partial mashes. I am wary of making oatmeal. And I have never done a 100% Rye. 50/50 Rye/Corn is probably better.

Thanks for the link!

Don't get discouraged, it is possible. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85799

I recommend you start with something a little less finicky though. At least half barley, make the rest up of whatever and add rice hulls at 1/2 oz per lb of anything that doesn't have hulls. You will do fine! Jump in... the water is fine!