Distilled from oranges, how I make it.

[Demy]

This ferment was not expected ... I was repairing a mixer, I was using oranges as a test, then I noticed that I had overripe oranges, so on the spot I decided to make a little ferment (with the excuse of the mixer test) I've actually successfully fermented orange juice in the past but this time I did something new ... I ground the whole oranges.

[Demy]

It was difficult to measure the OG, even filtering the juice is very cloudy so I don't think it's reliable (OG 1035), given the small amount I decided to enrich with a sugar syrup, generally I never put sugar in fruit

A ph test tells me about 3.9

[Bushman]

What are your plans for the fermented oranges?

[Demy]

I corrected the pH to 4.5 then I threw the rehydrated yeast (prepared while I was blending the oranges)

The small fermenter is full to the limit, I hope it goes well

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I did something similar recently with great success.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=86334

[Demy]

What are your plans for the fermented oranges?

Hi bushman, the few times I have fermented citrus fruits I have subsequently treated them like a brandy, usually stripping in depth then running on bubble plates or double pot-stills, I will keep it white for this reason I do not call it brandy. Generally you get an excellent product from the juice but this time I wanted to ferment the whole fruit, the skins as you know have a lot of flavor.

[Hügelwilli]

Orange peel contains much pectine. And fermented pectine results in?
If there is a way to produce a toxic brandy without adding methanol, it is fermenting whole oranges.

[Demy]

I did something similar recently with great success.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=86334

Interesting, I don't know that fruit, does it taste like orange?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I did something similar recently with great success.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=86334

Interesting, I don't know that fruit, does it taste like orange?

Yes, it's a citrus fruit. They are like tiny little Oranges. They are kind of unique among citrus fruits though because the skin of kumquats is actually the sweet part and the pulp is more bitter & sour.

[Demy]

I did something similar recently with great success.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=86334

Interesting, I don't know that fruit, does it taste like orange?

Yes, it's a citrus fruit. They are like tiny little Oranges. They are kind of unique among citrus fruits though because the skin of kumquats is actually the sweet part and the pulp is more bitter & sour.

Ok, thanks ... very interesting, I learned something new ..

[Demy]

I am keeping the fermentation temperature low, the yeast proceeds quietly without excess

[Hügelwilli]

I try it a second and last time: is it really safe to ferment something with peels that contain 30% pectin?

[EricTheRed]

Pectolaze enzymes sort that out

[Hügelwilli]

What does "sort that out" mean? It disappears? Or what does the enzyme form?

[EricTheRed]

The enzymes break down the pectin into fermentable sugars

[Demy]

I try it a second and last time: is it really safe to ferment something with peels that contain 30% pectin?

I avoided answering because I know the discussion leads to a dead end but I try: this is a mix of peel, juice, water, sugar. The methanol produced will be discarded exactly like other distillations, good cuts. The entire fruits (including those with a lot of pectin) are always distilled and even here good cuts is the magic word. Think of apples .. High pectin content but this does not mean they are not fermented and distilled. Do you want an example even more significant? Grappa ... Grappa (authentic) comes from 100% grape peel ... I can smell the heads well before distilling it (along with pleasant aromas of course). This maybe will lead to an infinite debate that I would like to avoid, but everyone has the right to say his own.

[NormandieStill]

Pectolaze enzymes sort that out

The pecto enzymes will deal with the pectin, but unless you have happen to have the right type (lyase IIRC correctly) they make methanol as well as providing fermentable sugars.

What does "sort that out" mean? It disappears? Or what does the enzyme form?

Citrus peel may be high in pectin, but the resulting juice is going to be lower. Whether you'll hit lethal levels of methanol would need lab testing, but as I understand the chemistry you're unlikely to exceed the ethanol levels which will reduce the toxicity of the methanol. You may not be able to sell your finished product in Europe.

[Hügelwilli]

Pectolytic enzymes make methanol from pectin. And no, there are no new special enzymes, which produce less methanol generally. Those new enzymes are only less efficient than the old enzymes.

Methanol is not a foreshot compound. Methanol smells similar like ethanol. You cannot discard it with a potstill or small reflux still.

Whole oranges contain more pectine than apples or grape trester.

You could perhaps lower the methanol content by not blending the peels.

[EricTheRed]

The pectolaze i use claims to reduce methanol. From my distillations it is working.

[Demy]

In all fruit distillates (more or less depending on the fruit) there is more methanol production especially due to the pectin. The methanol is very soluble in water so in the first distillation where in the boiler we have a low ABV will be spread along the entire race and it is very likely that there is even in the queues, this because it does not follow is dragged by the water. This happens for example in a pot-still especially in the first distillation. With the significant increase in ABV we can separate it via its boiling point, there is less dragging of water. For this I always prefer a double distillation. The methanol in any case will not be = 0 but there will always be a small share in each distillate, with each home technique.

[NormandieStill]

And no, there are no new special enzymes, which produce less methanol generally. Those new enzymes are only less efficient than the old enzymes.

This is simply not true! Pectin lyases do not produce methanol. However at 302€ / 100mg (Or the bargain price of 160€/100mg if you buy 1G at a time), they are not easily available to the general public.

[Hügelwilli]

NormandieStill,
here you can download a study in German language that shows that those new enzymes produce less methanol but also liquify less:
https://bibliothek.hobbybrennen.ch/file ... ischen.pdf
They don't break the linkages to the methyl groups, so they don't produce methanol directly, but they break the other linkages. That helps the enzymes of the fruit to break the linkages of the methyl groups. It's like gelatinizing starch doesn't produce sugar, but it helps the enzymes to do it.
The modern distillers in Europe now avoid using those enzymes AFAIK. It is always an option simply to add more water to the must if needed instead of enzymes.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because Demy has not used any enzyme as far as I can read.


Demy,
many fruit distillates from whole fruits in Europe have a methanol content over the legal limits, although they are double distilled or column distilled. If you ferment a mash containing more pectin than an apple or quince or trester mash, it is very likely that you will have very high methanol amounts. It is a gamble. You cannot know what rate of the pectin of your orange peels has methyl groups.
You could ferment without peels, freeze the peels, and then add them directly before distilling.

[zapata]

Nobody asked me, but I think the concern is real, the ability to test is cost prohibitive, and the reward is low to non-existant. This just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If I want an orange spirit I can make everything from curacao to triple sec, orangello to citrus heavy gin. Even if I had an unlimited supply of free oranges, I'd not bother without a specific and attractive goal. Is there one?

Of course there can be value in just playing around the spot. But you might as well do it with eyes open that it is at least potentially dangerous. OTOH, maybe you learn something that can be applied in a reliably safer way.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I have yet to see anything here that I can acknowledge as truly unsafe.

So far it's just people posting "well I think pectin can make methanol, maybe..."

How about some actual science or empirical data?
From all of my research, a hobby level distiller would be hard pressed to make any product containing more methanol than typically contained in a few servings of natural squeezed orange juice. Furthermore I do not know of 1 single case of methanol poisoning other than those involving tampered liquor.

My kumquat experiment came out so good that I am certain I will be not only making it again every year, but I am looking forward to improving upon and refining the recipe.

[NormandieStill]

NormandieStill,
here you can download a study in German language that shows that those new enzymes produce less methanol but also liquify less:
https://bibliothek.hobbybrennen.ch/file ... ischen.pdf
They don't break the linkages to the methyl groups, so they don't produce methanol directly, but they break the other linkages. That helps the enzymes of the fruit to break the linkages of the methyl groups. It's like gelatinizing starch doesn't produce sugar, but it helps the enzymes to do it.
The modern distillers in Europe now avoid using those enzymes AFAIK. It is always an option simply to add more water to the must if needed instead of enzymes.

I don't read German so I'll have to dump the article into google translate, but I can read the French "résumé" at the end.

. Avec la combinaison PG plus PME les quantités de méthanol sont
plus élevées. Avec PL ou sans aucune addition, les
quantités de méthanol sont pratiquement identiques.

"The combination PG + PME (traditional pectinase) gives higher levels of methanol. With PL (lyase) or with no additions, the quantity of methanol is practically the same."

This seems to say the opposite of what you were suggesting.

As you say, Demy didn't use enzymes but I just want it to be clear for future readers that non-methanol producing enzymes do exist and do work. The reality is that high-methanol spirits exist (plum brandy was the benchmark in the biggest study on methanol reducing techniques for distilling IIRC), that the EU limit for methanol in alcoholic beverages is not based on reliable science, and that in the presence of alcohol, methanol toxicity is reduced. A 2001 study tried to establish safe limits and came to a conclusion that up to 2% methanol by volume in a 40% abv drink could be tolerated with a safety factor of 4. The EU limit is set at 0.4% and from memory only certain years production actually came close to exceeding that limit.

Demy and HbP. If you are really concerned at any point, limit your consumption to no more than a glass in any 2 hour period and you should be absolutely fine (I am technically a biochemist, but I've not used my degree in 20 years so this information comes with all the legal clout you can expect from free advice on an anonymous forum )

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Demy and HbP. If you are really concerned at any point, limit your consumption to no more than a glass in any 2 hour period and you should be absolutely fine )

Oops...

[NZChris]

I don't think it's as simple as that. Methanol stays in your system for more than 24 hours, so regular daily consumption will cause a build up. If you are silly enough to do that while drinking large quantities of high methanol product you are asking for trouble. The big trouble starts if you stop drinking the ethanol that you need to counteract the methanol and your first aiders don't realize that you urgently need ethanol.

[NormandieStill]

I don't think it's as simple as that. Methanol stays in your system for more than 24 hours, so regular daily consumption will cause a build up. If you are silly enough to do that while drinking large quantities of high methanol product you are asking for trouble. The big trouble starts if you stop drinking the ethanol that you need to counteract the methanol and your first aiders don't realize that you urgently need ethanol.

This is 100% true and I should have put it in my original post.

After your glass of orange brandy, you should keep drinking non-methylated drinks regularly to ensure that the methanol is safely eliminated from your system!

Assuming that HbP can still read these posts, we can probably assume that his consumption level did not result in toxic methanol consumption, but that is just a single data point and doesn't prove anything. Ultimately there's no way to guarantee safety, but I'm still inclined to think that even in the worst case scenario that natural enzymes successfully break down 100% of the pectin to produce the maximum possible amounts of methanol, you're unlikely to get too close to actual toxic levels. Even hitting the EU limit puts you at about 1/5th of the estimated safe level which itself has a 4 times margin of safety. My personal opinion (and it is nothing but that without actual numbers) is that the ethanol will pose a physiological threat before the methanol does. If I get really bored this evening I'll try and pull some numbers and see if it's possible to ballpark the methanol levels in the wash.

[Demy]

I would be calm from this point of view because often weeks go by without touching alcohol, I don't have any health problems it's just that I'm not a heavy drinker and when I drink they are very small quantities. But this is another story, I like all the suggestions but we are talking as if we were producing only methanol .... I don't think so

[Yummyrum]

Just a question.

Is it the thin zesty orange layer that is a problem or is it the white pith ? .

Seems to me that the juice is wanted … and I guess the zest for flavour.
So surely at Home distiller levels it would bot be too much effort to squeeze the juice and keep some zest and leave the pith out if that is potentially a problem .

BTW , I used to make a lot of Orange wine and Grapefruit wine for that matter and they all had sugar added . That was before I had ever heard or pH . It always fermented out fully dry using EC1118 .