Any leeway on the 40% spirit run rule?

[AppleWood50]

Trying to make a some fuel for my little tabletop bioethanol fireplace and unfortunately these things run on 90% ethanol or above. And I don't have a reflux still.

My fores/heads seem to come out at 90% ish on my pot still so they are great for use. Accept they burn bright blue. If anyone knows how to make these a nice orange flame let me know please.

I was wondering just how strict the 40% rule is?

As in, let's take my little air still. Would it be outrageously dangerous to fill it with a 60% charge? I think this would get me into the 90 percents and be good for fuel.

I suggest the air still because it's a small 4L charge. 60% really isn't as flammable as people make out (tried and tested in my table top fireplace) and because the air still has enclosed elements that are not exposed and it's all electric.

Let me know your thoughts guys. Of course if the 40% rule is unmovable for safety then I won't deviate from it. Just not sure how set in stone this rule is.

I think an important consideration is this. Heating 60% alcohol in a pan on an electric hob would be a disaster waiting to happen. Because it's an oxygen rich environment. Heating the 60% alcohol in a still would be completely different because all oxygen is eliminated during the heat up phase. Fire can not take place without oxygen.

In general just want to discuss how you feel about the 40% rule and any thoughts or experiences on pushing beyond.

As always SAFETY is the number one thing.

[Salt Must Flow]

I would do a small test mixing a little bit of isopropyl alcohol with what you have and see if that makes it burn orange enough.

[Sporacle]

While it's true that fire requires oxygen, it doesn't need atmospheric oxygen. Fire can occur at greatly reduced percentages.
Personally I would look at building a small reflux still and then go from there.
I would not charge my still over 40 abv and I'm not sure if you did run your pot with a 60 abv charge that you would get a 90 abv return over a run

[StillerBoy]

I suggest the air still because it's a small 4L charge. 60% really isn't as flammable as people make out (tried and tested in my table top fireplace) and because the air still has enclosed elements that are not exposed and it's all electric.

I've done higher than 40% with no issue.. but.. one of the main consideration is how quickly the heat up will occur, as the higher the ABV is, the quicker the heat up occurs.. on the small 1L pot setup, it will be quick, so have everything setup and ready to run before firing up and heat up on a lower power setting..

The main reason for recommending 40% or lower is for dilution of the low wine in order to clean it up some, cause once the distillate starts coming out of the spout, it's at the same level that a reflux column..

Mars

[AppleWood50]

I would do a small test mixing a little bit of isopropyl alcohol with what you have and see if that makes it burn orange enough.

I'll definitely give that a try thank you! The blue flame is nice it's just not as visually stunning in a bioethanol burner.

[AppleWood50]

While it's true that fire requires oxygen, it doesn't need atmospheric oxygen. Fire can occur at greatly reduced percentages.
Personally I would look at building a small reflux still and then go from there.
I would not charge my still over 40 abv and I'm not sure if you did run your pot with a 60 abv charge that you would get a 90 abv return over a run

The AIT of pure ethanol is 793f I imagine it's much higher than that for 60% ethanol.

Just dont get how this could pose any real risk of fire when inside the boiler. It doesn't get heated to anywhere near the AIT and it isn't in contact with an element.

The only real risk that I could detect from this would be if you had a leak. If the vapour from a leak caught fire it could set the entire boiler on fire.

But we shouldn't have leaks and we shouldn't have anything nearby that could cause ignition if we did have a leak.

By all means guys do correct me if I am wrong.

[AppleWood50]

I suggest the air still because it's a small 4L charge. 60% really isn't as flammable as people make out (tried and tested in my table top fireplace) and because the air still has enclosed elements that are not exposed and it's all electric.

I've done higher than 40% with no issue.. but.. one of the main consideration is how quickly the heat up will occur, as the higher the ABV is, the quicker the heat up occurs.. on the small 1L pot setup, it will be quick, so have everything setup and ready to run before firing up and heat up on a lower power setting..

The main reason for recommending 40% or lower is for dilution of the low wine in order to clean it up some, cause once the distillate starts coming out of the spout, it's at the same level that a reflux column..

Mars

Thanks for the input Mars, good to hear from some personal experiences of doing this.

I can imagine the run would be quick. I'm assuming this puts extra pressure on the condenser too? So making sure the condenser is up to the task I assume would be fairly important.

Out of curiosity Mars, could you tell me what ABV you have gone up to in your boiler? As in 50%, 60% ect? And how this impacted the ABV of the distillate.

Would be great if I could get an estimation of what a pot still should give out from X ABV of spirit run. Not even sure if charging with 60% would give me 90% distillate.

[Sporacle]

Just dont get how this could pose any real risk of fire when inside the boiler. It doesn't get heated to anywhere near the AIT and it isn't in contact with an element.

Not saying either way about the risk, more speaking of the Hazard.
Was just offering my opinion on the question, if you're experienced enough you should be able to figure out the risk and mitigate it

[StillerBoy]

I can imagine the run would be quick. I'm assuming this puts extra pressure on the condenser too? So making sure the condenser is up to the task I assume would be fairly important.

Out of curiosity Mars, could you tell me what ABV you have gone up to in your boiler? As in 50%, 60% ect? And how this impacted the ABV of the distillate.

I've responded by a PM

Mars

[elbono]

There is a recent thread about this I think the most comprehensive post was viewtopic.php?f=33&t=86441#p7702616
My summary: Sure you can, your caution needs to increase as the charge abv increases, it isn't worth it.

These charts may help understand what you need. By my quick read of the second one you would need a 85%+ charge on a single distillation to get 90% output.
/forum/download/file.php?id=54017&mode=view

download/file.php?id=79100&mode=view

[Saltbush Bill]

Applewood I suggest that you read the following link end to end before proceeding further.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31053
A 40 % ABV boiler charge is the highest recommended by this forum, for many safety reasons.
A quick search of the forum using " High ABV boiler charge " in the search will provide you with much much more reading on the why not's of this subject.

Stillerboy it might pay you to do the same search to reacquaint your self with why we don't recommend higher than 40%.
Also refrain from suggesting that it's a good idea to do so to novice distillers please.