Sodium Carbonate and soapy smell

[Terrenum]

On my journey to produce the best vodka (and neutral for gin), I decided to add Sodium Carbonate to my low wines before my spirit run. I got my Sodium Carbonate from an organic grocery nearby and made sure it was 100% pure as it was in the cleaning product section and sold as washing soda.

I was quite surprised to notice a "ozonic, clean dishwasher" smell coming out of my still about halfway through the hearts...
I smelled the "cristaux de soude" and they actually have a bit of a soapy smell. I contacted the company producing/packaging the product and they assured me it was 100% Sodium carbonate, however they did specify that it was not food grade, meaning that it is package on equipment where other product are being packaged.

Now I am a bit concern about few things:
1-losing my 10L batch of 94% alcohol that was on its way to become a great neutral
2 - potentially contaminated my neutral with hazardous product

If I dilute to 20-30% and rerun it, would it clean the neutral from this potential contaminent?

What is your take on this? If I rerun and get rid of the smell, should I trust this and drink it?
I think from now on I will simply rely on a quality wash and 2-3 or even 4 distillation to get the nest neutral possible...

[Dougmatt]

I would think you my be experiencing saponification. Basically you might have made soap. The fast addition of water, which contains alkali (sodium carbonate), converts fats (esters) into soap. Not sure what your base was, but if a high ester potential wash then that’s possibly your cause.

It is a fairly common liquor flaw.

[Renhoekk]

I smelled the "cristaux de soude" and they actually have a bit of a soapy smell.

That’s the concerning part for me. Pure sodium carbonate doesn’t smell like that…in fact it shouldn’t smell like anything.

Unfortunately I can’t say whether or not your distillate is safe. “Soaps” can be non-toxic or toxic, depending on the type of soap and how it’s made.

When it comes to safety, I like the rule of thumb “if in doubt, throw it out”. I can always make more spirit, but I can’t grow another stomach.

Try to find sodium carbonate in powder form, rather than washing crystals. The crystals are made for use in laundries and there’s more of a risk that they will contain other things. Try swimming pool and spa shops, if you have them in your area

[NZChris]

A search for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sodium+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

[Renhoekk]

I would think you my be experiencing saponification. Basically you might have made soap. The fast addition of water, which contains alkali (sodium carbonate), converts fats (esters) into soap. Not sure what your base was, but if a high ester potential wash then that’s possibly your cause.

It is a fairly common liquor flaw.

That's a possibility! Terrenum didn't mention what the base for the ferment was - that would be helpful.

Terrenum - were you using a high amount of a raw grain such as wheat or another cereal?

[Terrenum]

Thanks for your quick reply.
The base was approx 60% sugar, 30% flaked corn and 10% barley. lots of nutrient and fermentation went great and was completely dry FG @ 0.096
Did a cold crash for 3-4 days and the wash was clear. Smelled a bit fruity before distilling in low wines.
I did a run and then a spirit run.
I was running a spirit run with a mix of faints and low wines. The plan was to add to my neutral and do a 3rd spirit run.
I was wondering if I added the Sodium carbonate too early and created some sort of reaction. I added 24 hours before firing up the still
I am using an AlcoEngine type of reflux column on a brewzilla boiler

[Salt Must Flow]

I've used Sodium Carbonate many times and never had anything like that occur. I make my own by baking Sodium Bicarbonate so I know there are no added materials. If you ever want to try Sodium Carbonate again, I'd make it yourself.

[NZChris]

Chucking bases into your spirits without checking the pH has always looked a bit risky to me, especially sodium bases. You might have gotten away with it if it was just a plain old sugar wash with few esters and fatty acids.

[Renhoekk]

Thanks for your quick reply.
The base was approx 60% sugar, 30% flaked corn and 10% barley.

That's pretty low in fatty acids, so I don't think saponification is the culprit. I'm still suspicious about your sodium carbonate smelling like soap - it simply shouldn't if it's pure. I think it's more likely that the washing crystals are the culprit.

I was wondering if I added the Sodium carbonate too early and created some sort of reaction. I added 24 hours before firing up the still

Creating a reaction is the point - and the length of time doesn't really matter. The sodium hydroxide and the esters will react with water to split apart the esters typically present in your low wines (esters made up of ethanol and carboxylic acids), freeing up the ethanol molecule. This happens quickly, and leaving it for 24 hours as you did is neither an advantage or a disadvantage. You'll only get noticeable saponification if there is a substantial amount of triglycerides present (an ester made up of glycerol and fatty acids) - which there wouldn''t have been in your case. Saponification is more likely to occur in cereal mashes that use a large proportion of raw grains, as they haven't undergone malting which breaks down a lot of the fatty acids. And there's zero risk with sugar because it's a pure carbohydrate.

[Dougmatt]

[Saponification is more likely to occur in cereal mashes that use a large proportion of raw grains, as they haven't undergone malting which breaks down a lot of the fatty acids. And there's zero risk with sugar because it's a pure carbohydrate.

Saponfication May or May not be the culprit as I originally suggested, however I just want to note that it is also a flaw found in rum (in addition to whiskey, brandy and Gin) and there is no grain in rum. It is the oils, waxes and esters being converted as ph is raised.

In this situation, If there was a fruity smell as suggested, and there was cereal in the wash, then that likely indicates presence of esters, which could have been converted when the ph was rapidly raised.

High Ph, speed of ph adjustment and presence of esters seem to be the currently understood gating factors based on what I’ve read.

[NZChris]

Some types of gin benefit from a hint of grain in the base spirit, so design your base spirit to match your gin and don't go overboard trying to strip out all of the flavor.

How to 'fix' soap is new to me and I hope I never have to do that. If you have a mini still, try adjusting the pH down with acid and running a trial. My go to acid for creating esters is sulfuric. I don't know if it works to convert soap back into esters and suspect you might be in trouble. Ask a chemist, or do some serious research online.

[Renhoekk]

[Saponification is more likely to occur in cereal mashes that use a large proportion of raw grains, as they haven't undergone malting which breaks down a lot of the fatty acids. And there's zero risk with sugar because it's a pure carbohydrate.

Saponfication May or May not be the culprit as I originally suggested, however I just want to note that it is also a flaw found in rum (in addition to whiskey, brandy and Gin) and there is no grain in rum. It is the oils, waxes and esters being converted as ph is raised.

In this situation, If there was a fruity smell as suggested, and there was cereal in the wash, then that likely indicates presence of esters, which could have been converted when the ph was rapidly raised.

High Ph, speed of ph adjustment and presence of esters seem to be the currently understood gating factors based on what I’ve read.

Molasses/sugar doesn't lead to saponification in rum. Saponification comes about from fatty esters, and the fatty esters in rum come from deliberate bacterial infection and wood aging. Nothing to do with sugar, which contains zero fatty acids.

Terrenum's vodka ferment (60% sugar, 30% flaked corn and 10% malted barley) will produce mostly non-fatty esters. So it's very unlikely to produce "soapy" distillate when sodium carbonate is added to the low wines. The sodium carbonate will clean up the low wines by splitting the non-fatty esters into ethanol and sodium salts.

[Terrenum]

Thank you all for your comments; this is great input.
Now that I smell the crystals and do notice a faint "clean, ozonic" smell similar to when you open your dishwasher after a load.

I use calcium carbonate for brewing and know for sure this is food grade, so maybe next time I could use that? Any input with that salt?

Now, the question is: can you clean those smells?? I guess I'll try and find out. If it works, does that mean there is potentially some hazardous material still in there ?

I am afraid I just lost 60L of wash and lots of time to run 3 times... It was pretty good already and screwed up but wanting a better neutral!!

[jonnys_spirit]

Thank you all for your comments; this is great input.
Now that I smell the crystals and do notice a faint "clean, ozonic" smell similar to when you open your dishwasher after a load.

I use calcium carbonate for brewing and know for sure this is food grade, so maybe next time I could use that? Any input with that salt?

Now, the question is: can you clean those smells?? I guess I'll try and find out. If it works, does that mean there is potentially some hazardous material still in there ?

I am afraid I just lost 60L of wash and lots of time to run 3 times... It was pretty good already and screwed up but wanting a better neutral!!

Try to look at it as gaining valuable first hand experience which was hard to come by. You can make more and if you still want to experiment (hope you do) you could experiment with smaller quantities.

I’ve read about folks using this method to reclaim good etoh from feints. If you make a good clean initial wash and good cuts you probably don’t need it?

Cheers,
-j

[squigglefunk]

maybe skip the washing powder and look into carbon filtering, its how most commercial vodkas are made

[DAD300]

First, you're trying to make neutral, but you put a lot of unmashed grains in it that will only add oils and flavors you don't want. Stop that...

Air it until the smell goes away. Bucket with towel over it.
Try a quart if you can and air it for a day or two.
You'll loose a small amount of liquor and all the smell.

The proofing water will remove/cover some smell also.

[Renhoekk]

Thank you all for your comments; this is great input.
Now that I smell the crystals and do notice a faint "clean, ozonic" smell similar to when you open your dishwasher after a load.

I use calcium carbonate for brewing and know for sure this is food grade, so maybe next time I could use that? Any input with that salt?

Now, the question is: can you clean those smells?? I guess I'll try and find out. If it works, does that mean there is potentially some hazardous material still in there ?

I am afraid I just lost 60L of wash and lots of time to run 3 times... It was pretty good already and screwed up but wanting a better neutral!!

It’s alright - we’ve all lost batches in the name of experiments and mistakes. It’s all part of the learning process.

Make your own sodium carbonate from baking soda Then you know exactly what’s been added…nothing!

All you have to do is buy a box from the supermarket and heat it up to drive out the water. Here’s a video:

[Terrenum]

Thank you all for your feedback.
I am rerunning a spirit run today and the smell is fine.
Not sure if I can trust it however since there could have been some sort of contamination from cleaning product...may use it to create my own cleaning product!!
I started a new 80L wash