Grain questions…

[Mr_Beer]

This question relates to grains and terminology …

I am a ‘tree farmer’ by prior experience. I do not know what to do with a real farm grain and the various descriptions. So, I apologize if this has been answered but my searches have yielded little useful information.

Let me list some of my questions – actually ignorance of apparently well understood terms.

Corn is a staple and I determined I can buy ‘pulverized corn/ at the feed store and using high temps and enzymes get it converted to sugars. Along the way I could buy ‘flaked corn’ at my beer brewing supplier. WAY MORE expensive than the pulverized corn from the local feed store.

Now we move to Oats – it comes in the whole version, crimped, steamed and flaked. Crimped or whole at the feed store is low cost. Other versions cost lots more.

Next, we have wheat – again it comes in a low cost version at the feed store. At other outlets there are unmalted, torrified wheat and some other names. Does the wheat, used in distilling, have to be crushed similar to other grains? If so can it be crushed by typical 3 stage milling machine used for barley? I was advised that corn would quickly ruin a milling machine and I should buy pulverized.

Rye is the next grain. I have an ample supply and crush it with my milling machine. Seems to work. Is there a different approach that should be used??

My suggestion is that a FAQ regarding grain and associated terms would be helpful. Once I understand the issues and terminology, I will volunteer to write that FAQ.

Any help will be appreciated.

[still_stirrin]

This question relates to grains and terminology:
- I can buy ‘pulverized corn/ at the feed store and using high temps and enzymes get it converted to sugars.
- I could buy ‘flaked corn’ at my beer brewing supplier.

WAY MORE expensive than the pulverized corn from the local feed store.

Corn is a source of cereal grain sugars for fermentation. It is cheaper to produce than barley (malted for brewing). So that’s why it is used in commercial spirits production: as a cost savings.

However, the available starches to convert to fermentable sugars are harder to get out of the kernel, so more effort is involved. The starch must first be gelatinized and that requires the high temperature processing (much closer to boiling). Corn is a challenge to work with especially if you’re not skilled at all grain mashing.

Now, for the flaked corn (at your local homebrew store). It has been pre-gelatinized in the flaking process, so you can go straight to the saccarification rest (for starch conversion) just like you would your malted barley. The cost increase for flaked corn accounts for the labor and processing costs associated with it. Again, if you’re not a skilled brewer, I would suggest starting with flaked corn at least until you understand the mash processes.

… Now we move to Oats:
– it comes in the whole version,
- crimped,
- steamed,
- and flaked.

Crimped or whole at the feed store is low cost. Other versions cost lots more.

Oats is a nice “complementary” cereal grain. You can mash it just like barley. Raw oats has a coarser “grassy” flavor and it will contribute more mouthfeel (viscosity) to the beer & spirits. I typically don’t use more than 15% of the grainbill as oats, but DAD300 (Falling Rock Distillery) makes a wonderful oat whiskey that uses 100% oats.

Again, flaking will increase the cost of inventory due to the processing, but it is ready to mash and works quite well. In fact, I use Quaker Quick Oats from the grocery store in my bourbons. It adds a smoothing quality to the other flavors. It does also help the texture (mouthfeel) a little too.

… we have wheat:
– again it comes in a low cost version at the feed store.
- other outlets there are unmalted,
- torrified wheat and some other names.

Does the wheat, used in distilling, have to be crushed similar to other grains? If so can it be crushed by typical 3 stage milling machine used for barley? I was advised that corn would quickly ruin a milling machine and I should buy pulverized.

Wheat is another cereal grain that is nice to add in certain percentages. I use raw wheat (from our farm fields), and I have malted some of it at home too. Wheat is quite easy to home malt if you want to experiment with it. But be warned, it is another whole challenge besides brewing and distilling. So, plan accordingly.

Torrified wheat is “puffed” wheat, where it has been heated to cause it to “pop” a little bit like popcorn. This process will geletinize the starches so it is easier to mash. But again, it adds to the material’s cost. I also think that torrified wheat tastes different from malted wheat. So, YMMV.

… Rye is the next grain. I have an ample supply and crush it with my milling machine. Seems to work. Is there a different approach that should be used?

Hmmmm ….rye, huh? Rye is very high in beta glucans, the carbohydrate chains that make glue. So working with rye (raw or malted) is challenging to mash, especially if you lauter your mashes (which I do). Rye has a unique “sourdough” character which can give your spirits a spicy quality. Many brewers like it and it is nice and complex. But rye is a tricky cereal grain to work with. If you’ve mastered it, the power to you. To some, it’s left for the more experienced brewers.

So, there’s some answers for you. Hopefully they’ve answered your questions. If not, then maybe your questions were not very clear. But I tried.
ss

[subbrew]

I will assume the pulverized corn you get at the feed store is cracked corn. But it may have been ground finer and listed as ground corn. I don't see ground corn at a mill all that often. I find my conversion on cracked corn is not great so I have a burr mill and grind it to a course corn meal. At a mill they use a hammer mill and by changing the screen size on the hammer mill, the resultant produce is more or less finely ground.

Flaked corn has been steamed and run between two large rollers. At the mill where I worked the rollers were 1600 lb each. You will see it also listed as rolled corn. To me this is the best deal as it is usually only a couple of dollars more per bag than cracked corn. And it has already been gelatinized by the steaming. I run if through the burr mill as well but not sure it is needed. I figure the more surface area for enzymes to attack the better. I would ask the feed store if they can get rolled or flaked corn.

Flaked oats are the same as what you buy for breakfast. They are steamed and run through rollers just like corn. They also have the hulls removed before being steamed. Crimped oats have gone through a crimper which does break them up a bit but they are still in the hull. I would think that would make it hard for enzymes to get in and sugar to get out.

Wheat does need crushed and your two or three roller barley mill will work fine. Once again you are looking for surface area.

Rye can be treated like barley, so what you are doing is fine.

As for running whole corn through a roller mill, do not do it unless you have hardened rollers. Monster mill sells a mill with hardened rollers that can handle corn. But for most mills, designed for barley the rollers will prematurely wear if you run corn.

[Bradster68]

This is a good write up about oats. I just bought my first bag today of crimped oats. Iv used the oatmeal breakfast style before and loved the taste, I'll let everyone know how the crimps go.

viewtopic.php?t=4107

[Bradster68]

I will assume the pulverized corn you get at the feed store is cracked corn. But it may have been ground finer and listed as ground corn. I don't see ground corn at a mill all that often. I find my conversion on cracked corn is not great so I have a burr mill and grind it to a course corn meal. At a mill they use a hammer mill and by changing the screen size on the hammer mill, the resultant produce is more or less finely ground.

Flaked corn has been steamed and run between two large rollers. At the mill where I worked the rollers were 1600 lb each. You will see it also listed as rolled corn. To me this is the best deal as it is usually only a couple of dollars more per bag than cracked corn. And it has already been gelatinized by the steaming. I run if through the burr mill as well but not sure it is needed. I figure the more surface area for enzymes to attack the better. I would ask the feed store if they can get rolled or flaked corn.

Flaked oats are the same as what you buy for breakfast. They are steamed and run through rollers just like corn. They also have the hulls removed before being steamed. Crimped oats have gone through a crimper which does break them up a bit but they are still in the hull. I would think that would make it hard for enzymes to get in and sugar to get out.

Wheat does need crushed and your two or three roller barley mill will work fine. Once again you are looking for surface area.

Rye can be treated like barley, so what you are doing is fine.

As for running whole corn through a roller mill, do not do it unless you have hardened rollers. Monster mill sells a mill with hardened rollers that can handle corn. But for most mills, designed for barley the rollers will prematurely wear if you run corn.

Curious if you've used the crimp before?
I figured I'd grind,mash and use enzymes.
I like ETReds corn oat whiskey alot.

[contrahead]

There is a confusion between two different corn products, both called “flaked corn”. One is like breakfast cereal flakes that a kid pours milk and sugar on to eat. The other is cow and horse food that is tagged “flaked corn” by some mills or “steam rolled corn” by others.

https://afs.ca.uky.edu/livestock/feedst ... laked-corn

viewtopic.php?t=83566


Historically, rye was seldom ever cultivated. For centuries, in the spring farmers in Europe plowed under fields and would sew new seed grains like wheat or barley; not rye. But rye was stubborn and persistent. It would volunteer in a neglected wheat field, if left to its own devices. It might grow between wheat plants in a field, but not mature as quickly, not get harvested when the wheat seeds were; yet survive to produce seeds under the snow, at a time when a farmer and his family might be near starvation.

The first widely popular American distilled spirit was rum; made from molasses imported from French islands in the Caribbean. But the British fouled that with the passage of the 1733 Molasses Act. Which helped cause the Revolution. The act also had the effect of making distillers (especially in Pennsylvania and Maryland) turn to rye as their favored grain. (Because little else would thrive there). Then after the Revolutionary War, Alexander Hamilton and his tax goons pounced upon whiskey as a source of exploitable revenue (to pay back the national dept) at a time when society was largely cashless. The Whiskey Rebellion ensued.
This of course led many independent minds to migrate to the wild territory of Kentucky; which was not a state and not subject to a liquor tax. Yet. Corn grew better, the further south you traveled anyway. The rest is history.

[Twisted Brick]

Some very good advice here, Mr_Beer.

I thought you noted previously that mostly raw grains are available in your neck of the woods. Please note there are differences between raw grain and malted grains and how they are handled. For starters:

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/mashing-cereal-vs-malt/

Since you are a long-time brewer, you already know how to handle (mash/lauter) barley. But other grains, those that do not come with husks for convenient lautering must be handled differently. Rye is one of those grains. It is huskless, very dense/hard and a tad small to mill in your barley crusher. Like all my grains, I like to mill rye to a medium meal. There are a number of threads here that describe what members use to accomplish this. And like still_stirrin mentioned, rye comes with its own set of mash challenges, namely the gluey beta glucans it contains. Fortunately, there are more than a few threads here that deal with taming the glue.

[subbrew]

Curious if you've used the crimp before?
I figured I'd grind,mash and use enzymes.
I like ETReds corn oat whiskey alot.

I have not used the crimped. It is possible that milling will get it out of the hull like barley. But malted barley is kilned which may have made the hull more crisp and readily separated. I can eat malted barley with the hulls fine. But eating a hand full of crimped oats requires much more chewing.

When you say "grind" do you mean roller mill or a burr mill. I am sure a burr mill will tear it up and expose the grain. I would assume you need to do a high temp rest first to gelatinize just as you do with corn since crimped oats are not steamed. Not sure how a roller mill will do. If you try it, please report.

[PLAYMP]

This has been a really informative thread, hats off to everyone who has contributed.

Just want to add a practical point from my experience and that’s that using whole grains and grinding them at home to the extent possible is the way to go. I’ve really felt a marked difference in the product if I mill it vs buying already processed grain. And that makes sense, no different than grinding your own coffee or spices.

I use a little electric mill that I got off of AliBaba for fairly cheap and it works great. Even whole corn it chews through no problem, I consider it a very good investment for anyone doing meaningful amounts of all-grain:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 69925.html

[Bradster68]

Curious if you've used the crimp before?
I figured I'd grind,mash and use enzymes.
I like ETReds corn oat whiskey alot.

I have not used the crimped. It is possible that milling will get it out of the hull like barley. But malted barley is kilned which may have made the hull more crisp and readily separated. I can eat malted barley with the hulls fine. But eating a hand full of crimped oats requires much more chewing.

When you say "grind" do you mean roller mill or a burr mill. I am sure a burr mill will tear it up and expose the grain. I would assume you need to do a high temp rest first to gelatinize just as you do with corn since crimped oats are not steamed. Not sure how a roller mill will do. If you try it, please report.

I use a modified roller mill. The rollers are adjusted to a .003 clearance between them. Makes a big difference from the original setting. I absolutely will post my.process and results.

[Mr_Beer]

I really appreciate the answers -- everyone has been helpful and taken the time to respond. THANK YOU all.

My document that tracks and interprets these responses is in WORD document. Unfortunately a 'cut and paste' ruins the table format so I cannot post it.

Consequently I am unable to provide my summary of this question.

I appreciate the answers from 'still_stirrin' and 'sunbrew' and 'contrahead' and 'twisted brick' .

I was hoping to post a summary since it certainly clarified my confusion. That is probably not possible.

If someone knows how to post my summary let me know.

Thanks to everyone.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks again for all who helped. I figured out how to add my summary. Corrections are also appreciated.

[Mr_Beer]

Please ignore the prior .pdf document.

A newer version with more clarity and corrections is what should be downloaded. I apologize

Gelatinization Temperature Range.pdf

(240.21 KiB) Downloaded 94 times

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