Finishing flavors or (Back end)

[Stonecutter]

Recent honest tastes and reviews of my one year whiskey and a few of us came to the conclusion that there was little after taste, finish or “back end” flavor to my drop. The upfront tastes of the barrel like sugary vanilla and such are present, there is a fine whiskey taste from the grains and at 40% the hooch is smooth throughout but the intense flavors quickly retreat with the finish coming up a bit short.
Hoping that some of you might care to share what you have found to help the drop to finish with a stronger flavor?

[8Ball]

Hey Stonecutter, wider cuts for aging, longer aging, and bottling at 45-50% abv minimum. Quite the rabbit hole. Cheers.

[Stonecutter]

Hey 8Ball . Yes it is quite the rabbit hole.
Thank you Sir, cheers.

[Demy]

Great advice from 8ball, also might help fermentation on the grain.

[Stonecutter]

Thank you Demy. I’ve got a batch in the aging barrel that was fermented on the grain. I assume that the idea behind your suggestion is that fermenting on the grain helps the wash to absorb or extract more of the flavor from the grain over its fermentation thus leading to a stronger and more complete flavor profile?

I can see the logic behind 8Balls suggestion. Wider cuts offering more in the way of flavor.

I searched around and couldn’t pinpoint any topic that addresses “finish” specifically.
I do understand that this is probably a common thing pursued by many hobbyists here and that there may not really be a straight forward answer to many questions posed. I’m not asking for “Gerber” on a spoon here but if anyone has an external link or a topic that they know of that addresses such an inquiry this novice would be much obliged. Thanks again

[Oatmeal]

You might review the palinka thread, or read through some of Odin's posts about conceptualizing the different layers of flavor. Some good ways of thinking about flavor.

Floral/fruity being high notes and root, nutty and grainy notes being low.

Another analogy: when I make a tomato basil sauce I like to add a few dashes of fish sauce. The funk helps carry the fragrance of the basil and lengthens the flavor sensation...

Of course, I am still very much learning myself!

[OtisT]

Good advice above. A wider tails cut seems to make my spirits’ taste linger longer in the mouth.

What is your wood situation? Species, treatment, amount, etc. longer aging on the wood you have would help. If you are aging at a low ABV, below 60%, maybe try at a higher ABV. Maybe try a heavier toast or a different wood.

You can get more flavor by minimizing the amount of water you add back for proofing. Strip your ferment down to an average ABV that is low enough to produce a spirt at aging strength without diluting.

[Stonecutter]

Thank you very much Oatmeal.
I often compare cooking with the processes of making hooch so I can appreciate your tomato basil sauce reference. Which sounds delicious by the way.
I assume you are referring to “Paul’s” thread below? viewtopic.php?p=7204179&sid=68f2db569aa ... 5#p7204179

Odin’s insights and contributions to the hobby and the industry are greatly appreciated and the personification of his character as being a rabble rouser only adds to the respect that I have for him. I will most definitely take to winnowing through some more of his topics.
Again, thank you for the time.

[Deplorable]

I agree that you should venture a little farther to the right in your cuts brother.
If it's not bitter on the sides of your tongue at low proof, but just a little funky on the nose, consider adding it to the blend and see what happens.
I've also gotten better feedback on my lacto infected spirits than on those that made it to the still without an infection.

"Look to the east" for the complex finish.

[Stonecutter]

What is your wood situation? Species, treatment, amount, etc. longer aging on the wood you have would help. If you are aging at a low ABV, below 60%, maybe try at a higher ABV. Maybe try a heavier toast or a different wood.

You can get more flavor by minimizing the amount of water you add back for proofing. Strip your ferment down to an average ABV that is low enough to produce a spirt at aging strength without diluting.

I’m aging in a one gallon milehi barrel and I do have aspirations of moving to a 5 gallon Gibbs barrel next year. Pending available stock.

Here’s a link to the barrel I’m using now.

https://milehidistilling.com/product-ca ... oak-aging/
Website claims a 3-4 alligator char oak barrel. American made but no mention of what kind of oak, except for some strange reference to our “neighbors to the south” and tequila. MilehiMike is an odd duck that’s for sure.

I’ve got quite a bit of used American oak staves that I plan on “refurbishing” and experimenting with toast and char levels.

I strip down to 30-32% and age at 61-62%. At a collected volume of a gallon and a half and an abv of around 140 proof I do use a bit of RO water to bring it to aging strength. The first 3-4 Whiskey batches never went beyond 8 months but the hooch mentioned above sat for one year give or take a few days. Upon your suggestions and the suggestions above I believe I have been taking too little of a tails cut during the spirit run. However, I did expand my tails cuts on the spirit that refilled the barrel and am eager to taste the results. I will most definitely experiment with stripping down a little further and my cuts. That being said, I tend to get a little weary of collecting once I get to a collection of 30%.
Man I do love this hobby though.

Thank you OtisT. Damn shame I couldn’t have asked you these questions in person a few weeks ago. I was very eager to meet with everyone.

[Stonecutter]

I agree that you should venture a little farther to the right in your cuts brother.
If it's not bitter on the sides of your tongue at low proof, but just a little funky on the nose, consider adding it to the blend and see what happens.
I've also gotten better feedback on my lacto infected spirits than on those that made it to the still without an infection.

"Look to the east" for the complex finish.

I hear you loud and clear Brother
Salty has given me plenty of ribbing about it and although I have eased up on my obsession with sanitizing I’ve had little experience in the way of infections. I still hold out hope for myself

[Oatmeal]

Heh. That's the thread- here's the specific quote I was thinking of.

"Flames then turned to minimum, here comes the fun part: the fresh ripe apricot skin and the almond seed sensation (sopranos) comes with the head, so it is collected in different numbered glasses. The body (tenor+baritones) is also highly aromatic and tasteful, deepening slightly as we reach the tail. Now, the tail (alto+bass) is not an easy task with apricot: to make most of the complex, deep, "aged to black, cut with a pickaxe" apricot jam scent that lingers in the tulip-glass even an hour (!) after the pálinka is drank, it had to be separated very precisely, way before the tail start to smell like a dead hedgehog. All in all the final blend used to be between 60-65% alcohol-content wise before thinning up with a very thin strip of reverse osmotic water."

I appreciated the musical metaphor.

I have a tendency to be too tails heavy so far in my cuts, chasing the grain flavor. Happy to be finally getting some feedback from my first batches now that they've started reaching some decent ages, even if most of them aren't that good!

Such simple great advice from Deplorable as usual (wish there was a like button)

[jonnys_spirit]

I'd recommend considering working towards a solera and/or finishing barrel where taking wider cuts on the new make can be mitigated to a certain extent if you go too far and you can blend multiple sources into your finishing barrel (BadMo perhaps?) as you see fit and leave it for a period of melding.

Cheers,
jonny

[Deplorable]

Toss a little plain yogurt in your secondary and see it that gets you some lacto. Otherwise, I can send you a vial of some of mine that been under a sealed lid since April. Lol

[Stonecutter]

So I’ve taken the advice given to heart. On my last Whiskey run I collected far deeper than I usually do. I still haven’t had the patience or maybe the nose to get to wet dog/cardboard tails on my spirit runs I never claimed to be proficient in any of this. Anyway, It won’t be until mid august that the barrel will be ready to drain and refill which leads me to my next pondering. I would like to get the most out of my barrels before retiring them as table stands and conversational pieces. I may just try my hand at refurbishing some barrels. There is such a vast well of knowledge here. Such a wonderful site. I really appreciate everybody’s time. Donate to the cause y’all! The pursuit of a fine drop continues.