I decided to get the still fired up yesterday for the first time, I built a 2" CCVM, 3kw, 1.5m column (packed with copper) , on a leg boiler with a huge shotgun condenser I built.
Wash: Ted's Fast Fermenting Vodka (70 litres)
Day 1) 1.0067
Day 11) 1.001
Stripped two batches ran hard sub 5% and ended up with 23.2litres at 22%.
First distillation, I ran until I couldn't get anymore product no matter how much heat or where I put the RC position. Alcohol % stayed high for the full run, have I finished the run? I was expecting a sudden drop in %alc.... All the jars have a burn taste haha.
Product run time 4.5hrs (not including heat up)
Any advice/constructive criticism welcomed!
Congratulations on your run.
With that rig you should be able to achieve 95 at around 1 lph.
You haven't mentioned power but the figures indicate that it was probably to low and the RC wasn't low enough as well, so not enough reflux was occuring.
With a CCVM the ABV should be consistent through the run, when tails occur there will be a slight change in column temp and a change in output and boiler sound.
I don't have my power figures on me atm.
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
If someone has the same rig, if they could quote their power and take-off rates, that should be really helpful to make sure you're on the right track. Like Sporacle said, you should be getting 95% from the start, throughout the run right up until tails.
I think 3000w is way too much power for a 2” column. Yes, you can get a high ABV from a 2” running at 3000w and a lot of reflux but you are likely smearing all the components of your run. This is why they all taste the same “hot” to you. I think you should be running somewhere near 1500w, depending on how tight your packing is.
Your takeoff rate will be only a fraction of your max production rate. You should be going much slower than 1 lpm or your just making fuel.
Hey Muse. Another bit of feedback for you that starts with a question. Why was your collection rate all over the place? That should be relatively constant throughout the run. I’m just guessing you were playing with the power and reflux throughout the run. When making a neutral you should try to find a proper power/reflux ratio that gives you good separation and stick with it. There are folks that will tell you to change things up at various parts of a run (adjust power and reflux for heads, hearts, etc) but I think for a beginner you should stick with one setting through a run until you have that process nailed down.
Here are a few charts I find useful when I’m trying to set a desired RR and appropriate takeoff rate. Or from the takeoff rate you can tell what your RR is, assuming you know your power input.
Your max power setting is based largely on your column diameter and packing type. The max power you should be running at is around 1500 Watts.
muse wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:06 pm
Thanks, guys for the nice words!! I was running around 136v on a 3kw heater 240v system. Whatever that is in Watts? haha
Just in case you would be interested. That equals 963.3 Watts.
3000 *1362 / 2402 = 963.3
muse wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:06 pm
Thanks, guys for the nice words!! I was running around 136v on a 3kw heater 240v system. Whatever that is in Watts? haha
Just in case you would be interested. That equals 963.3 Watts.
3000 *1362 / 2402 = 963.3
I’d agree with that . What I would question is how did you measure the voltage ? Because if it was not a true RMS voltmeter then that reading may be significantly off .
muse wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:06 pm
Thanks, guys for the nice words!! I was running around 136v on a 3kw heater 240v system. Whatever that is in Watts? haha
Just in case you would be interested. That equals 963.3 Watts.
3000 *1362 / 2402 = 963.3
I’d agree with that . What I would question is how did you measure the voltage ? Because if it was not a true RMS voltmeter then that reading may be significantly off .
Thank you, I really like there formula to calculate power from input voltage. I forgot that, and remembered the ohms law formulas.
Hi Muse,
My cheap power controller looks a bit different to yours, but I reckon its innards are probably pretty much the same, in which case trying to apply ohms law to the voltage reading will drive you nuts.
Best thing that I did was to configure the rig as a pot still, boil some water in it and measure the take off rate at a few settings. Turned out mine was pretty much linear in power, ie at a reading of 120V I was getting 1/2 the output as 240V. Lucky for me I’ve also got a 2400W element, so the maths are pretty simple
After a few runs I ended up at nice sweet spot of 1 LPH at 1650 watts to sit at 95% right through the run. That’s on a 2” rig with 900mm column, so pretty consistent with the other guys.
I have done some work studying several other stiller's packed column run data and can use that experience to look at yours.
First, the 963 watts you ran is not bad but it is on the low side, not as much vapor is sent up the column as the others who run at about 1700+- watts. Taking your average distillate product rate as 1.33 L/hr , I get about a 1.3 reflux ratio that was run. Most of the others would have a 5 or 6 reflux ratio. So, that could be one contributor to why you started at 90% abv and went down to 85%.
Then at the low vapor flow, not much reflux is needed to be condensed, about 1.7 L/hr. You have a powerfull RC coil condenser with an extended finger. What cooling water flow rate were you running? The RC only needs about 160 ml/min cw flow rate to condense the reflux flow and get a 120 F exit cw temperature, a DAD300 recommended temperature. Try to control and measure the cw flow rate next time.
So, if you ran a high cw flow rate,then the reflux was subcooled too much and cooled off the liquid in the top packed sections. This might have affected the composition of the vapor ( more bad stuff ) and also might have led to the lower product abv. Maybe some others can discuss this effect.
And you said the product rate stopped before the abv dropped. This could also be from too low a temperature reflux downflow. The vapor up rate is lower at the end of the run so it might have been quenched by the cold ( maybe 90F -100 F ) reflux flow. About 4% alc was left in the pot when you finished.
I can show you some graphs of what the run was like. Here are graphs of my simulation of the product abv and product gal made vs time of the run, using the above reflux ratio. There is a good fit to the data.
Next time run higher power ( 1700 watts ) and watch the cw exit temperature. ( 120 F ). Adjust the RC for about 1 L/hr, as many others have recommended.
Haggy
I really value your simulations and think they are pretty accurate . But I seriously question the power levels that folk quote . I would not trust any voltage , current or power readings that were not done using a True RMS reading meter …….. Iff’n your predictions are to become more precise .
Yessir Higgins
Definitely way more accurate than a Phase controller on a Chinese Voltmeter
But always be aware of your the supply voltage .
A 3kw element at 240v might be that . But at 220v ,its pulling just over 2.5kw
At 250v it’s over 3.2kw .
So that needs to always be taken into account .
I know where I live , the supply voltage goes up and down like the proverbial .
I have done some work studying several other stiller's packed column run data and can use that experience to look at yours.
First, the 963 watts you ran is not bad but it is on the low side, not as much vapor is sent up the column as the others who run at about 1700+- watts. Taking your average distillate product rate as 1.33 L/hr , I get about a 1.3 reflux ratio that was run. Most of the others would have a 5 or 6 reflux ratio. So, that could be one contributor to why you started at 90% abv and went down to 85%.
Then at the low vapor flow, not much reflux is needed to be condensed, about 1.7 L/hr. You have a powerfull RC coil condenser with an extended finger. What cooling water flow rate were you running? The RC only needs about 160 ml/min cw flow rate to condense the reflux flow and get a 120 F exit cw temperature, a DAD300 recommended temperature. Try to control and measure the cw flow rate next time.
So, if you ran a high cw flow rate,then the reflux was subcooled too much and cooled off the liquid in the top packed sections. This might have affected the composition of the vapor ( more bad stuff ) and also might have led to the lower product abv. Maybe some others can discuss this effect.
And you said the product rate stopped before the abv dropped. This could also be from too low a temperature reflux downflow. The vapor up rate is lower at the end of the run so it might have been quenched by the cold ( maybe 90F -100 F ) reflux flow. About 4% alc was left in the pot when you finished.
I can show you some graphs of what the run was like. Here are graphs of my simulation of the product abv and product gal made vs time of the run, using the above reflux ratio. There is a good fit to the data.
Next time run higher power ( 1700 watts ) and watch the cw exit temperature. ( 120 F ). Adjust the RC for about 1 L/hr, as many others have recommended.
haggy
Wow!!! Golden Advice! Thanks for taking the time to write me a detailed response!
OK, so I was running a very fast RC water flow.... From mains water too.. How do I measure the temperature of cooling water?
muse wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:52 am
OK, so I was running a very fast RC water flow.... From mains water too.. How do I measure the temperature of cooling water?
Depends on your particular setup , but for a quick test many a time I have simply ran the coolant out water over a thermometer into the sink .
Here’s a couple of cobble ups I’ve made and used to measure outlet water temp
Maybe not directly useful for a PC but some ideas to get you thinking.
Thankyou! I've sketched one up in CAD and 3D printing an adapter which I can fix a PRT100 style thermo into my cooling hose.
I'll add photos and the 3D file when I do my build blog to share the learning.
muse wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:43 am
Thankyou! I've sketched one up in CAD and 3D printing an adapter which I can fix a PRT100 style thermo into my cooling hose.
I'll add photos and the 3D file when I do my build blog to share the learning.
Thanks!
A hand held IR thermometer can also give you the exit water temp. Those also work well for other needs, like a quick ferment temp. It was fairly easy for me to learn what 120f, 140f feel like to the touch.
No expert here, but I do have a 2" packed column CCCM. After many experimental runs, I have homed in on settings to get myself a nice clean 95% neutral. My best runs were with a still charge of 4.5 to 5.5 gallons at 22% to 30% ABV. I only strip down to 20%. Maybe 10%. I think this may result in a cleaner product, but ???
You must (in my opinion) be able to reasonably accurately control and measure Watts and RC Flow Rate.
Watts - get yourself a wattmeter. Better yet get a couple of different ones to help put trust in your sanity. Amazon. Temu. AliExpress.
RC Flow Rate - This needs to be delicately and accurately controlled. Use a needle valve to control. Or better yet buy a cheap $20 flowmeter that includes a needle valve. I use both in series. They use 10mm push-in hose fittings. Range 0-1000mL/min. Amazon. Temu. etc. I have a well pump which varies my water pressure enough between cycles that I also added a cheap Rainbird brand in-line water pressure regulator. Initially I would start a timer for one minute, collect my RC output water in a pitcher, and measure the collected water in a graduated cylinder to find mL/min. I have since come to more-or-less trust the reading on my flowmeter.
It is also helpful to know RC temperatures:
RC Input Temperature - I just crack the garden hose, let some seep into a cup, and stick in a cheap digital thermometer
RC Output Temperature - I have a plastic hose on my RC output. I simply pierced the hose with a cheap meat thermometer. Keep it simple.
You have two knobs to adjust and control. Watts and RC flow rate. This is the balance. The dance.
I run at 1800W-1900W. My RC rate is typically 550-650mL/min. I start out by stacking the column by setting my RC rate greater than 1000mL/min for maybe 10 minutes or so. Not sure if this really makes a difference. Then bring your RC rate down to get some drips. Adjust RC rate down until you get around 1L/hr takeoff rate. Then leave it alone. Leave it alone... for hours. With these settings I can collect at 95% from foreshots right to tails.
I have a few window sections in my column, top and bottom. I leave a gap in my SS scrubby packing in these windows so that I can see the reflux fall from the dephlag, and back into the boiler. This has been VERY helpful in seeing what is really happening and estimating reflux ratio.
EDIT! I have been corrected. You have a CCVM, and my post is regarding my CCCM still with dephlag. So... maybe... only bits an pieces will apply to your setup.
Last edited by PoolGuy on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you for that advice! I'll get a needle wheel and a flow meter.
Upon inspection I've just found a potential problem. I popped 3 copper scrubbies to fill the rest of my column packing (frayed welding wire, as recommended on this forum by another post(
It appears the 3 copper scrubbies have rotted with lots of black carbon dustz they crumble to dust when squeezed... after only a cleaning run and two strips and a spirit run.. obviously wasn't 100% copper! Just had a massive cleaning job and citric, hydrogen peroxide, water bath. I need some stainless steel ones instead now ..
Last edited by muse on Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
My DIY printed thermometer inline holder. Siliconed for extra sealing as a test. Obviously it's a closed loop cooling drain, so doesn't matter that I've used silicone haha.
Thanks for everyone's input! Ran 90 litres of birdwatchers,
1.090 start
0.990 finish
X2 stripping runs to around 10% or lower. Approx 30% overall in the collection tank .
Spirit run;
Full power 3kw to heat up
Full reflux for 10 mins
Pulled foreshots around 250ml
Reduced to 160v (1600w?) RC Coolant temp 49°c
Collection rate 1.3 L/HR
All collected distillate was at 96.6% when corrected and the alcometer at 10°c always sat around 94-95% for the full run. Distillate is airing for 24hrs before cutting.
I struggled to maintain 100% reflux even by dropping the RC to it's lowest point... But it was a steady run. Maybe I need a new CSST RC, this copper one is a bit narrow and long. Not sure
I have a flowmeter to install for my next run on the cooling pipes to the RC.
I have done some work studying several other stiller's packed column run data and can use that experience to look at yours.
First, the 963 watts you ran is not bad but it is on the low side, not as much vapor is sent up the column as the others who run at about 1700+- watts. Taking your average distillate product rate as 1.33 L/hr , I get about a 1.3 reflux ratio that was run. Most of the others would have a 5 or 6 reflux ratio. So, that could be one contributor to why you started at 90% abv and went down to 85%.
Then at the low vapor flow, not much reflux is needed to be condensed, about 1.7 L/hr. You have a powerfull RC coil condenser with an extended finger. What cooling water flow rate were you running? The RC only needs about 160 ml/min cw flow rate to condense the reflux flow and get a 120 F exit cw temperature, a DAD300 recommended temperature. Try to control and measure the cw flow rate next time.
So, if you ran a high cw flow rate,then the reflux was subcooled too much and cooled off the liquid in the top packed sections. This might have affected the composition of the vapor ( more bad stuff ) and also might have led to the lower product abv. Maybe some others can discuss this effect.
And you said the product rate stopped before the abv dropped. This could also be from too low a temperature reflux downflow. The vapor up rate is lower at the end of the run so it might have been quenched by the cold ( maybe 90F -100 F ) reflux flow. About 4% alc was left in the pot when you finished.
I can show you some graphs of what the run was like. Here are graphs of my simulation of the product abv and product gal made vs time of the run, using the above reflux ratio. There is a good fit to the data.
Next time run higher power ( 1700 watts ) and watch the cw exit temperature. ( 120 F ). Adjust the RC for about 1 L/hr, as many others have recommended.
Congratulations on your run.
