Cutting off heating element - toxic?

[JustinNZ]

G’day.

I’ve got a big, old, unused 5000-ish watt element residing in my copper still, and removing it will leave a big - probably messy - hole. It’s currently welded in. I don’t have any welding skills to patch it, which I’m assuming is the sensible thing to do. I’d like it gone so I can make a smaller hole somewhere else and then put in a second new element. The first one has worked a treat. I’m going to run them independently from different circuits.

Anyway, I think I could suffer through cutting the element off inside the still and pinching/folding the ends. I’ve googled the crap out of this but can’t figure out if what’s in a heating element is bad - after washing and a sacrificing properly, that is.

I gotta feeling I’m making a world of pain for myself now and should listen to Captain Sensible.

Any thoughts welcome. I mean, relevant thoughts! Some things should remain thoughts.

[NZChris]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just put the extra element in. I've been running two elements for decades and am running two right now, one controlled the other not.

[Salt Must Flow]

A pic would help to answer a LOT of initial questions.

I imagine you could use an angle grinder with a cutting disk to make many short cuts around it to remove it. After some clean-up work, you could solder a patch over the hole with some flattened copper pipe.

Another idea would be to cut and grind a round hole to install a 2" Tri-Clamp bulkhead fitting in its place. That is assuming that you have access to the interior to tighten the nut.

[Steve Broady]

I agree, I think you could either patch or reuse the hole pretty easily. Copper is beautiful stuff to solder, and to form. Give us a picture, and I’ll bet we can come with some ideas. And worst case, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

[AlZilla]

You wouldn't need to weld if it's a copper boiler. Soldering copper is pretty easy to learn and very easily done. Maybe even less work that cutting off and sealing up the old element.

[Yummyrum]

Also agree with Soldering on a patch .Easy peasy . The hottest it will ever get is 100°C so the solder will never melt .
For a long time I used Stainless Wash tub as a big O’l pot .
I had a copper disk soldered over to plug hole . I would stick my Three ring gas burn right under it . Because it always had liquid on it , the patch never melted off even with flames right on it .

[JustinNZ]

I need to remove it because it’s in the way in there. I think I’ll bite the bullet and attempt a patch - I just worry about long-term strength of soldering - I’ll need to do some reading in that cos everything I’ve ever soldered onto copper could be peeled off like a banana skin. Here’s a pic:

[NZChris]

Is there a friendly plumber at your local pub?

[JustinNZ]

I think you’re right, Chris.

[MooseMan]

Oh I'd 100% have to get that out.

Can you get to the inside Justin?
If so, once it's out you can put a curved block of wood inside and tease those wrinkles out nicely with a soft hammer before soldering on a patch.

A well soldered cooper patch won't come off even if you tried hard.
Watch a couple of tuition vids, get some scrap and practice you'll be surprised at how quickly you improve.

Edit: I've just realised (It's 7am here and I'm on my way to work) this is the second hole you are talking of patching Justin, so you've deffo got some soldering practice in your near future!
I wanna see photos!

[JustinNZ]

Mooseman, I can definitely get in. It’s got a detachable 4inch riser which I can squeeze my arm through. The patch though - is it just a piece that’s wider than the hole? How much wider? Inside or outside? And how the hell do you hold the patch in place while soldering it? These things blow my mind. It’s easily blown, mind you.

I’m a timber guy. Metalwork is like macrame for eels to me.

[NormandieStill]

I’m a timber guy. Metalwork is like macrame for eels to me.

For eels? Or with eels?

I can sympathise though. Carpentry is a subtractive process, metalwork is often an additive one. It's a completely different mindset and it's why I struggled a long time with concrete and still prefer avoiding it.

To answer your more practical questions, technically a few mm larger would be enough, but within reason, the more overlap, the more wiggle room you have if it slips a little while soldering. As for holding it, you'll probably need to get creative. You could rivet it with copper rivets and the solder will also fill any small gaps with them. You can clamp it by building a custom wooden clamp (think a U that wraps around your still with one of the bars touching the patch plate and a rope pulling the two free ends together. I can sketch that if it makes no sense). You could even (if the hole is not too big), solder a stainless ferrule on there, (which can be clamped in place with a bolt and some large washers or metal bars) and install a blanking plate. This last one lets you reuse the hole for something else in the future if the need or inspiration arises.

[JustinNZ]

Fantastic response, Normandie. Thanks. For eels, for the record.

Cutting off the element with a multi tool still has its appeal though.

[Yummyrum]

Copper is easy . Trick is to anneal it . IE , get it cherry to red hot around the patch area . …. And of course , the patch as well .
Once you done that , it’s like putty in your hands ( LOl , you need to let it cool down first ) Soft and confirming . You anneal the boiler and the patch and you can basically press them together .
Obviously you need to clean the surfaces before soldering . Acid will quickly remove any post annealing oxidation making soldering easy ….. with liquid flux of course .

Painting the area with Citric acid solution should do it . If you can lay the area in a bowl of it , even better .

Tinning the surfaces where the patch will contact makes life even easier . That is where you paint flux on where the joint will be . Apply heat gently while “whipping “ the solder in the proposed joint area .
Do that to the patch as well .

Now you sit the Patch on the hole and heat the two . As soon as the solders melt , the patch flashes onto the boiler ….. like magic :

You may need to add a bit more solder but in most cases , it’s just ….. boom

[MooseMan]

Well, the guys have answered all of your queries already so there's little for me to add really!

For ease of working, I'd go with a patch on the outside. And make is as big as you like but 10mm overlap would be plenty.
And another way of holding it in place whilst you solder, is wire.
After prepping all of the surfaces and applying flux, place the patch on, wrap wire around it and the boiler and twist the wire up until it's garotte tight. That won't move until you untwist after all the soldering is done.

[Steve Broady]

I’ll add my $.02 worth, regarding holding the patch. You could drill a handful of small holes through both patch and boiler, then insert short bits of copper wire to hold things there during soldering. You’re basically making a lazy rivet, but it doesn’t have to do anything other than keeping the parts in place. That way you have one hand on the torch, one on the solder, feeding it into the joint.

The common theme here is that how you hold the patch simply isn’t important. If you’re careful and lucky, you can just lay it on and solder it, letting gravity hold it. I’m never that lucky, no matter how many times I try. Wooden blocks, metal clamps, rivets, wire, you name it. They all do the same job.

If you want a smaller hole where the patch is (for a ferrule, drain, or whatever) it’s even easier. Two blocks of wood or metal screwed or bolted together through the hole will do the trick. I’ve used that when soldering ferrules on before.

[Salt Must Flow]

Once the element has been removed and the area has been shaped as uniform as reasonably possible (like Yummy said), the rest is easy. Thoroughly abrade the patch and around the hole. Make sure it's clean, flux well, apply heat and the solder will flow. I prefer paste flux with copper and I've never had any issue with adhesion.

I'd just lay the boiler on its side with the hole on top. Place wood on both sides to keep the boiler from rolling. The patch should sit on top and shouldn't really need held by anything. Solder will flow right under the patch. That patch would not be something to worry about falling off, leaking or anything like that. In other words, it won't be a weak link to ever have to think about.

All you need is a propane torch, paste flux and some silver solder. From what I can see in the pic, the hardest thing will be to form the copper around the hole to get the wrinkles out so there's no gaps between the boiler and the patch.

[JustinNZ]

You guys are too good - thanks so much, really appreciate it. I’ll have a go - might be a week or two though - and post the results, for better or worse.

If successful it will be an easy renewal process for my Man-Card 2024/25.

[Steve Broady]

Just think, you could make that patch kinda circular, and a bit domed, with a smaller bit in the center poking out..maybe have to add a second patch beside it..

Copper sure is easy to form, and easy to get artistic with.

[venkman]

Just think, you could make that patch kinda circular, and a bit domed, with a smaller bit in the center poking out..maybe have to add a second patch beside it..

Copper sure is easy to form, and easy to get artistic with.

I just spit my drink.

[MooseMan]

Just think, you could make that patch kinda circular, and a bit domed, with a smaller bit in the center poking out..maybe have to add a second patch beside it..

Copper sure is easy to form, and easy to get artistic with.

Yummy is gonna kick your ass!

[Yummyrum]

Just think, you could make that patch kinda circular, and a bit domed, with a smaller bit in the center poking out..maybe have to add a second patch beside it..

Copper sure is easy to form, and easy to get artistic with.

Yummy is gonna kick your ass!

Yes
That is not the normal type of nipple that is sweated to a still . …… fair dinkum ….. you guys are frigg’n hopeless .

[JustinNZ]

Well, I chickened-out in the end when an ex-jeweller offered to do it. Yeehah. He soon regretted it, but after 2.5 brazing sticks and no doubt a fair bit of gas later my still with the tennis-ball-sized hole patched came home for cleaning and testing. There were two little leaks which I inexpertly soldered over and now she’s a fully operational Death-star and pumping out rum as I write. I promise I’ll patch the wine-cork blocked hole in my riser myself. And apologies to Mooseman for, y’know, not mentioning the artistic potential in the project to the jeweller.

[MooseMan]

That is so uncanny!

A friend of mine asked me last night if I could modify a swan hot water boiler to make a still for him, he showed me a pic of the plastic ended tap on the side and the first thing that came to mind was your ugly hole Justin! Haha

Thanks for coming back and letting us know that it's gotten sorted, that's made me very happy, even if it is still ugly and has no boobies...

[Yummyrum]

Thanks for coming back and letting us know that it's gotten sorted, that's made me very happy, even if it is still ugly and has no boobies...

Feck you’re special Moose

Nice job Justin