Mash Problem

[jsanders1127]

Ok problem solvers

It's my first time doing an all-grain mash and it's going south.

Using MALTED WHEAT and MALTED BARLEY
Heated my water to a boil and LET COOL to 150 degrees
I then added my grains and held temp at 145 degrees for approximately one hour

I let the mash cool over night until temp came down to 90 degrees. I then pitched my YLAY.
Starting gravity before yeast pitch was 1.077
Inital Ph prior to yeast was 5.6

After two weeks the cap has formed and fallen back down.
Not much yeast activity this whole time.
The mash smells sweet and has an alcohol smell and is sour to taste.

Two days ago, i checked temp, ph and gravity...

Current temp is 83 degrees, ph was 4.34 so I added STABLIZER 5.2, gravity is 1.070 so I added 2 1/2 pounds of honey and some DADY yeast with no effect.

This is a 20 gallon On-The-Grain mash

The issue is the gravity hasn't dropped very much at all, so I'm confused on my next step. And also, what could've happened.

[Homebrewer11777]

Thats a new one to me. I've really never heard of using 5.2 stabilizer in the fermenter. Beer brewers may use it in their mash, but they almost always boil the wort after the mash and before the yeast is pitched.

I think that would be on high side pH wise for yeast...while 5.2 can be good pH to mash, yeast want it to be a little more acidic and typically beer (wort) goes into fermentor at about 4.9-5.1 and then yeast drives pH down to somewhere between 4 and 4.5 where it is happiest.

[Saltbush Bill]

I think you need to read the following thread from end to end,
viewtopic.php?t=76531

[NormandieStill]

I don't see how it could cause problems, but if you're using YLAY you shouldn't need to do a traditional mash. And if you're doing a traditional mash and it's going well, you don't need YLAY. Baker's yeast would do.

How are you measuring gravity? How certain are you of your starting and final gravity numbers?

YLAY is a problem when using gravity as you usually have no starting gravity reading as the conversion and fermentation are happening in parallel.

[jsanders1127]

I'm using a refractometer and hydrometer

[MooseMan]

I'm using a refractometer and hydrometer

Ok first bit of problem solving, read the thread that Bill has kindly linked for you. Yes it's long and peppered with lots of posts that don't help, but there is much golden information spread through it that will increase your understanding.

Then when the penny drops, pop back in here and say what you think you got wrong and what you did right

Your process and ingredients are all a bit of a mish-mash. Pun very much intended.

[NormandieStill]

Next question then: are you aware that refractometer readings need correcting once there's alcohol in the wash.

Using MALTED WHEAT and MALTED BARLEY
Heated my water to a boil and LET COOL to 150 degrees
I then added my grains and held temp at 145 degrees for approximately one hour

I let the mash cool over night until temp came down to 90 degrees. I then pitched my YLAY.
Starting gravity before yeast pitch was 1.077
Inital Ph prior to yeast was 5.6

After two weeks the cap has formed and fallen back down.
Not much yeast activity this whole time.

What makes you say there's not much yeast activity? The cap is created by solids rising due to the CO2 created by the yeast.

The mash smells sweet and has an alcohol smell and is sour to taste.

Two days ago, i checked temp, ph and gravity...

Current temp is 83 degrees, ph was 4.34 so I added STABLIZER 5.2, gravity is 1.070 so I added 2 1/2 pounds of honey and some DADY yeast with no effect.

This gravity reading feels wrong. A 145F mash should have given you lots of fermentables. How well ground were your grains? A pH of 4.3 is not a crash, no need to react to that. When you say there was no effect to adding the honey and DADY, what did you measure?

This is a 20 gallon On-The-Grain mash

The issue is the gravity hasn't dropped very much at all, so I'm confused on my next step. And also, what could've happened.

Given the numbers you've posted this should have gone quite well (starting gravity was a little high bit not extreme and the cap rising suggests the yeast were doing something.). The fact that it didn't go well makes me think that there's a measurement or two that's off. Either your starting gravity was much higher or your final gravity was lower. If you have the ability to run just a little bit of your wash (like a glass lab still) then you can see how much alcohol you get off and work back from there to see how much alcohol is in the wash.

[squigglefunk]

Ok problem solvers

The mash smells sweet and has an alcohol smell and is sour to taste.

run it , problem solved

[NormandieStill]

Ok problem solvers

The mash smells sweet and has an alcohol smell and is sour to taste.

run it , problem solved

I do agree 100% with this, but finding out what happened also means not doing that thing again!

My first all-grain got an infection and it took me a while to get over the "fear" and have another go. Working out that the missing step was forced cooling was part of the fixing of my process that gave me confidence to try again.

[The Booze Pipe]

Run what you have and see what you get! Then before you start another ferment, do some research... you are mixing up a couple different procedures for mashing. If you want to use YLAY, no need for malt. If you want to use malts, no need for YLAY. If you don't want to use either of those, then go with sugar.
Look in the Tried & True section for a recipe that suits you best.

[NormandieStill]

If you want to use YLAY, no need for malt. If you want to use malts, no need for YLAY.

...

Look in the Tried & True section for a recipe that suits you best.

If you're only interested in the ethanol then the above is true, but malts have a different flavour profile to raw grain. You can always toast the grains to get some of the way there. I use YLAY for a lazy bourbon ferment but the recipe is still nearly 50% malt.

[shadylane]

Using MALTED WHEAT and MALTED BARLEY
Heated my water to a boil and LET COOL to 150 degrees
I then added my grains and held temp at 145 degrees for approximately one hour

Boiling removes oxygen from the water that yeast needs to multiply.

[planohog]

well the corn is normally someting that is worked up 190 - 165 ish. then add the malts around 145ish . probably going to have to use sebstar HTL up high to get the corn to stir, it will be super thick. but thats ok with no heat source.
good luck. write out your steps pre mash, so you can follow them. good luck Merry Christmas

[howie]

i got infections with the overnight cooling too.
start early, get a cheap SS coil cooler, fit it with the same fittings as your still fittings (mine are all interchangeable camlocks) and get it down to pitching temp in a couple of hours.
i'm in the pushing the cap down camp, whether it's ylay or not.
a PH of 4.3 is not panic stations, i have heard of 5.2 stabiliser in beer circles.
mashing wheat and barley at mashing temps for one hour should be enough.
i know of distillers and brewers who put either gluco or ylay in their ferments to convert any missed starch.

[shadylane]

Ok problem solvers...After two weeks the cap has formed and fallen back down...
...The issue is the gravity hasn't dropped very much at all, so I'm confused on my next step. And also, what could've happened.

Damned if I know, but based on the info supplied, I suspect faulty measurements.
I'd be tempted to run it and see how much alcohol was there.
Consider it a learning experience and next time do better.

[Homebrewer11777]

Using MALTED WHEAT and MALTED BARLEY
Heated my water to a boil and LET COOL to 150 degrees
I then added my grains and held temp at 145 degrees for approximately one hour

Boiling removes oxygen from the water that yeast needs to multiply.

This got me thinking and reread OP. Was an odd approach, to boil the water and then wait for it to cool to add the grain. I was thinking there was some corn involved when I read that but see corn was not mentioned.

As for oxygen, I think that may be reason YLAY must be stirred during initial fermentation. While brewers DRY yeast doesn't actually need oxygen (manufacturing process adds the sterols that are needed for initial growth cycles) it seems koji yeast might act very differently. Koji apparantly does need quite a bit of oxygen to grow which is probably why YLAY process requires frequent/daily stirring of the mash during early phase of fermentation.