Triticale Try

[Hormesis]

Hey All....
I learned a ton from the gurus of this site that have made my mashes successful beyond my expectations. Thank You All very much.

Now I want to try designing my own recipe. I have heard about TRITICALE grain and I think it may be right up my alley. I found some triticale last fall on a road trip so I bought enough to make enough mashes for a 5 gallon barrel. I malted half of it and I will use half of it raw in the same recipe.

My grains have all been from the feed store or farm…flaked (steam rolled) corn, home malted wheat, home malted barley and home malted rye. I have done many mashes using all grains and enzymes (mostly liquid) combined with my home malt and they have turned out well.

My mash setup includes 3 BOP's made out of kegs and 2 gas burners so I plan on making these recipes/batches simultaneously and cool them quickly with a wort chiller so I can dump them in a 30 gallon poly barrel for ferment on the grain.

Can anyone with triticlale experience please have a look and give me any pointers on my intended procedure?

So here’s my plan broad picture....

Triticale Mash 80% Triticale + 20% corn

Summary and Ingredients (step by step is below the summary)

20 lb Malted Triticale (home malted > dried > kilned 175° for 2 hrs then rested 3+ weeks)
20 lb Raw Triticale
10 lb Flaked Corn … for a touch of sweetness
(ALL grains ground to same size)
~20 gallons water (2.5 lb grain / gallon)
- Backset to adjust pH
- Gypsum
- Magnesium Sulfate
- Amylase Enzyme (dry) 140°-149° 0.1-0.3 tsp/gallon…(I can’t find data for mine so I’ll use this temp)
- Amylase Enzyme (liquid) AHA-400 170° - 190° / pH5.5 – 6.5 / 1.6ml / gallon
- Gluco Amylase (liquid) GA-150 90° - 110° /pH 5.5 – 6.5 / 0.8ml /gallon
- Yeast - Ferm Solutions FSL-927
- Beta Glucan rest at 110° - 115° for 30 minutes……..then……
- Protein rest at 125° for 30 minutes……..then
- Raise to saccarification temp by adding boiling water (201°) to first 10 lb of raw triticale after both rests….........want temp rise to 165°
-Then add malted grains (64°) … temp should settle at ~148° for conversion
(Rye gel temp is 135°-158°----wheat gel 140°-167° so this is dual purpose)



Corn portion first….Pretty straight forward for the corn portion….

FLAKED CORN
(ONE big aluminum pot to make corn mash for both batches of triticale)
4.5 gal water heated to boil pH 5.7 – 6.2 + 1tsp gypsum
10 lb corn at 64°
- add ground corn to boiling water then Amylase Enzyme (liquid) AHA-400 when at 190°
- wrap and rest for at least 30 minutes OR as long as it takes to mash the triticale
**When temp drifts down to 149° add alpha amylase powder
Then….
Let rest until temp gets to 149° THEN SPLIT BETWEEN 2 MASH TUNS WITH TRITICALE MASH


TRITICALE….MALTED AND RAW
Step by Step

TRITICALE (two separate batches in two BOP’S…enough for a 30 gallon poly barrel)
- Heat 4 gallons water to 119° and pH 5.7 – 6.2 + 1tsp gypsum
- Add 10 lb *RAW* ground triticale (grain temp 64°)
---- this should get me 113° for beta glucan rest…. ~30 minutes insulated
Plan on temp to drift down to 110°
While resting heat 1 gallon of water to boil with pH 5.7 – 6.2
- When 30 minute rest is done, add ¾ gallon of this boiling water to the mash…..
- We’re shooting for 125° for protein rest…add more boiling water or let cool to 125°
---- let mash rest for 30 minutes insulated
Plan on temp drifting down to 120°
- While resting, heat 2.8 gallons of water to boil with pH 5.7 – 6.2
- After the above rest, add 2.5 gallons of this water to mash tun and take temp…
** -We are shooting for 165°**
-At 165° add 10 lb of ground **MALTED** triticale (64°) and the temp should settle at ~148°.....Now add alpha amylase to mash

**…hmmmmmm!!....THE MALTED TRITICALE IS NOT BETA GLUCAN RESTED..…..**
It took a while to malt this triticale and I don’t want to denature it…..And I don’t want to risk heating it
up from 113° to 149° and scorching it. Am I asking for trouble here with 20 pounds of malted triticale
that WILL NOT BE BETA GLUCAN RESTED in my 50 pound batch?**

Cool it all to 80° and pitch big starter of Ferm Solutions FSL-927

------I’LL BE FERMENTING ON GRAIN------

So there you have it. My concerns are about the lack of beta glucan rest on the malted triticale and the
other concern is about the dry amylase enzyme temp/pH.

All comments and suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Hormesis

“Ignorance is its own punishment”

[The Booze Pipe]

You might be the authority on triticale on this forum! Best of luck, and hopefully the enzymes you add will act as a clean up crew. It's an interesting grain, but I don't see that it will gain traction and popularity. I have not tried triticale, it sounds like a rye with less flavor, but good yield.

[BoilerMaker]

I made a malt whiskey from 100% triticale, 95% pale plus 5% C-75. The malts were commercially produced by Skagit Valley when they were in business. I did a single infusion at 148F and according to my notes didn't use exogenous enzymes. I forgot about this batch until now, and had to dig through storage to find it. It's been sitting in deep sleep since I made it 2 years ago and tasted for the first time today. It's pretty damn good, maybe one of my best. Unfortunately I only kept 1000ml at 54% ABV from a 12.5gal/47L 1.067 ferment. Looking back it stands out as being the most difficult to distill of any of the many experiments I've tried. On a one-in-done w/two plates, puking was a significant problem. The low yield I'm guessing was due to a couple things in the ferment. Bad temp control (none) combined with yeast selection (Ferm solutions FP-1). Possibly an infection while beer was clearing. I have better equipment now to step mash and lauter, so I might change up the process and ferment off-grain for single malts. If I had to go on-grain again I might mash in at higher temps and use GA-150 for conversion. Maybe use some beta-glucanase too. I also made a handful of bourbons that were 60%-70% corn, 15%-25% triticale pale malt, and the remainder various other malts - vienna, 6-row, crystal, chocolate wheat. Proportions similar to SCB and mashed with SoCD's large batch method. I was not a fan of the results to begin with, but going on 4 years they become very nice.

Dunno if the above helps with your first question. On the second about dry amylase enzyme, if you have 1L of GA-150 why not use it instead?

[Powder Monkey]

I have a few acres of triticale in this year to experiment with. We’ve had a crap winter/“spring” so we’ll see how it does. That said here’s my 2 cents. If you’re going for it I say go all in and skip the 20% corn and do 100% triticale.

You’re fermenting in grain but I think the more important question is if you are distilling on grain/have steam system. I have steam set up. In my experience with rye and wheat glucan rest is helpful, protein rest not as much as this is just freeing up N for fermentation yeast which is already plentiful in feed grade grains. Simplify the process and do glucan rest, then right up to mash temp and eliminate the corn (even though it’s flaked and doesn’t require separate cook). Add enzymes alpha at mash and gluco at pitch temp for backup and see how it does.

[Hormesis]

Hey Y'all, thanks for your replies so far.......
BoilerMaker....as far as your comment "....might mash in at higher temps and use GA-150 for conversion"...and ..."GA-150 why not use it instead?"...'The Ferm Solutions GA-150 that I have says to use it at 90°-110°so that's why I chose that temp range. My thinking on the dry amylase was for the conversion of the starch in the corn and the raw triticale since they will both be gelled by the temperatures I'll be using.
Beta Glucanase....what have you used and had good luck with?

Powder Monkey....I'm using the flaked corn because after putting this all down on paper I saw that I need to 'stretch' my triticale a little bit to get enough to fill a 5 gallon barrel and I already have the corn. As far as a separate cook for the corn, I always use flaked corn (feed grade) and the high temp enzyme 'just to be sure' I get conversion.
I do not have a steam rig so I won't be distilling on the grain...I'm a squeezer. I have that routine down pretty well. I siphon or pump or dip the clear beer off of the top of the ferment then use the 'holey bucket' method....'Holey bucket' with strainer bag on top of catch bucket...let the slop sit a while ...squeeze....repeat.. I have 3 'holey buckets' so it takes only a couple hours to take care of a poly barrel mostly full of an on grain ferment. Then I let this settle for several days and pour off the clear liquid onto the still.

[Powder Monkey]

“Holey Bucket” nice. I spent a fair amount of time with the mop bucket squeezer before building my steam rig.

But before that I did a fair amount of research/practice with various rest protocols. One think I forgot to mention is I could never confirm if malted grain was needed to supply adequate enzymes for beta glucanase, protease rests so I always included a few lbs to ensure and the amylase action might be “sacrificed” if I went up to a high cook temp vs all raw grain. I recall anecdotally it varied depending on what grain, but I always added some for cheap insurance vs ending up with a sticky goop mess.

I think you have it figured out but wanted to mention that the GA-150 is providing a different action than the beta glucan rest as you referenced the temperature range. Beta glucanase breaks down cell walls (gummy stuff) and glycoamylase breaks down starch into simple sugars but both have a similar temperature range.

It took me a while to sort out all the enzymes for complex mashing/rests and I’d mix them up so I made a reference enzyme, action, ph range and temp chart.

[The Booze Pipe]

“Holey Bucket” nice. I spent a fair amount of time with the mop bucket squeezer before building my steam rig.

But before that I did a fair amount of research/practice with various rest protocols. One think I forgot to mention is I could never confirm if malted grain was needed to supply adequate enzymes for beta glucanase, protease rests so I always included a few lbs to ensure and the amylase action might be “sacrificed” if I went up to a high cook temp vs all raw grain. I recall anecdotally it varied depending on what grain, but I always added some for cheap insurance vs ending up with a sticky goop mess.

I think you have it figured out but wanted to mention that the GA-150 is providing a different action than the beta glucan rest as you referenced the temperature range. Beta glucanase breaks down cell walls (gummy stuff) and glycoamylase breaks down starch into simple sugars but both have a similar temperature range.

It took me a while to sort out all the enzymes for complex mashing/rests and I’d mix them up so I made a reference enzyme, action, ph range and temp chart.

Is it possible for you to share that chart?

[BoilerMaker]

Hey Y'all, thanks for your replies so far.......
BoilerMaker....as far as your comment "....might mash in at higher temps and use GA-150 for conversion"...and ..."GA-150 why not use it instead?"...'The Ferm Solutions GA-150 that I have says to use it at 90°-110°so that's why I chose that temp range. My thinking on the dry amylase was for the conversion of the starch in the corn and the raw triticale since they will both be gelled by the temperatures I'll be using.
Beta Glucanase....what have you used and had good luck with?

What I meant to say is I might mash malts with other small grains at higher temp for the purpose of sanitation, say above 71C (160F). Once cooled to around 60C (140F) then add GA-150 for sacchrafication.

A product page on angleyeast.com for gluco-amylase GA-150 from a few years ago can be found here.
Some specs from it:
pH: operational range 3.0-5.5, optimal range 4.0-4.4
Temperature: effective range 30-65C, optimal range 55-60C.

I was told by ferm-solutions that the lower temp range they specify (90-110F) is to allow for process simplification at commercial scale, and came about as distilleries began adding it with yeast in one step. I've always added it between 54C-60C (130-140F) and have good results. I can't say if GA-150 from angleyeast is the same as GA-150 from ferm-solutions, or how they compare since ferm-solutions doesn't provide much info that's publicly facing. But I think it not unreasonable to assume they're similar if not the same. However, if there's any concern over temps then following the ferm-solutions guidelines is certainly safe.

RE: dry alpha-amylase. I would think GA-150 can hydrolyze anything that low temp alpha-amylase can. I haven't used it before so I don't know. It shouldn't hurt in any case.

[Powder Monkey]

Enzyme Temp range (F). Ideal temp. pH range

Beta glucanase. 95-131. 113. 4.5-5
Peptidase. 113-128. 122. 4.2-5.3
Proteinase. 122-138. 136. <5.3
Beta amylase. 130-150. 148. 5-5.6
Alpha amylase. 150-160. 158. 5.3-5.8

Ferm solutions
GA-150. 90-110. Ideal ph 5.5-7. Range 3-7. 0.8ml/gal dextrins~maltose and glucose
Alpha amylase 150-190. Ideal pH 5.5-7 range 4.7-7 1.6ml/gal
Starch-dextrins


*composed from various sources to the best of my knowledge but numbers vary depending on enzyme source and study.

[8Ball]

FWIW. I add my malts at 149F. I keep them at 140-149F for 90 minutes. Then I chill down. I add half my GA-150 when it’s under 140F, the balance I add under 120F. Never have a problem fermenting on grain and finish at 1.001 or better. FermSolutions is good stuff.

[BoilerMaker]

FWIW. I add my malts at 149F. I keep them at 140-149F for 90 minutes. Then I chill down. I add half my GA-150 when it’s under 140F, the balance I add under 120F. Never have a problem fermenting on grain and finish at 1.001 or better. FermSolutions is good stuff.

+1

[Hormesis]

Looks like the comments are in. Thank you all for your input.
This will be a spring project for me commencing in early May.
I’m planning on 4 batches pretty much as described above…..I’ll try to keep good notes WITH NUMBERS!
Watch this thread in mid to late May as I tend to let mash rest and settle for a while before running it.