Wet Cardboard and me

[harllequin1971]

Hi there guys.

After much reading I've not been able to find a solution and think I may be just being too picky.

I've got a bit of a problem with my final product.

I seem to only be able to small and taste the wet cardboard of collecting too much through all of my runs.

I've tried Rye, Corn and Barley mashes so far and they all have very distinctive tastes but the key thing spoiling them all is the wet cardboard that seems to be there from the start to the finish of the run.

I've tried to do the run at 3 drips a second and then as a steady cold flow and the same results happen.

I've tasted cardboard as soon as it comes out of the still and also after being aged for 2 weeks over oak rods.

I've kept product after discarding the forst 400 mls and still had the cardboard.

Am I being too critical or is this a problem others have faced and if so whats the best way to get around it.

My still is picturd below. The boiler is a 70ltr pot, the column is 54mm which then reduces down to 8mm outlet.

Many thanks in advance for any comments

[trthskr4]

Wet cardboard is usually associated with tails, however if you're getting it from start to finish even at a slow drip throughout the run then I'd say the smell and taste is either in your still head or maybe a byproduct of your yeast or some other ingredient that is common to all the different washes you've ran. I'd wash/rinse out the still head really well but be careful not to clean it "too" good. I have a familiar smell throughout all of my washes regardless if it's rum or whiskey or a sugar wash but after a little airing and aging it goes away. I never do anything to my copper except rinse it thoroughly with water after a run. Of course the last thing which comes through on every run is the tails so if you don't rinse well after every use then you'll pull the leftover tails smell and taste from the last run with the new run. Try everything common to all of your runs that you've done and start eliminating each one. Good luck.

[junkyard dawg]

You should set up a better (read safer) way to catch the distillate. That looks like its one bump from disaster. If you are running propane then that is a big danger. I always isolate my receiver in a big ol pot. That way if it overflows or spills or breaks, everything is contained away from the flame.

As far as the tails smell... Is there any packing in that still? What is the heat source? What kind of yeast are you using? What are you using to seal that lid? Its hard to diagnose a smell without smelling it, but we'll try...

[brewmaker1]

I've only done barley mashes, and always get a funky smell when I'm pot distilling. It doesn't really matter how slow I run it. The smell goes away with about a week of airing. h71 have you aired your product out for any length of time?

[Dnderhead]

Try fermenting off the grain that is what I do, less tannins etc. similar to doing beer but I use the sparg water to cook the next batch.
and not dilute the wash/mash.

[harllequin1971]

Thanks for the replys.

JYD. In answer to your questions / comments
There is no packing in the still

Catching the distilate is not like that now. I have a secure catch pot setup. That was my first run with water for cleaning and my only photo.

Heat is from gas.

Yeast is the wine weast that I get from the local home brew shop. No identification other than Wine yeast.

Seal is made from PTFE tape around the top.

BM1

I took advantage of the low temps here outside and did a freeze through the night, thaw threw the day for a week. I have only uncorked the DJ for 3 days in house. the smell has gone but the taste, more so the after taste is of the cardboard on the barly wash.

Cheers guys

[harllequin1971]

T4 For washing I've been letting the still head sit in a cleaning solution then it gets a very good rinse out.


Dunder
I'll try the fermentation off the grain next. But I got the same smells doing a rye grain wash to the UJ simple mash recipee.


hhmm?
I strongly think that I have not aired the product ong enough. Does longer airing rid the product of the cardboard taste as well as the cardboard smell.

I've ran the Barly batch through a smaller converted Still spirits (plastic removed) still. I diluted the product I had down to 205 and ran the 4 lts through and collected only 600mls at 75% Again the smell is there. So as stated above the airing may be the key to a happy product?

Cheers guys.

Although there is a LOT of info here. Asking questions still sheds light a plenty.

[big worm]

do you collect all/most of the product in one batch minus the 400ml, or small batches to make cuts later?

[harllequin1971]

I went so far as to collect everything into 100ml batches. tasted them all then only used the bits that didnt taste too bad. Saving the rest to store for throwing in at a later date.

[big worm]

I went so far as to collect everything into 100ml batches. tasted them all then only used the bits that didnt taste too bad. Saving the rest to store for throwing in at a later date.

ok...how big of wash? how many total liters collected from it, how many 100ml was ok? you only have a dozen or so posts but you could be a long time distiller....i'm just trying to help by deduction...lol if i could smell and taste it, we mite be able to help...trouble shooting likker by computer is like telling some one what it feels like to make love to a woman...lol its hard.

[Dr_T]

"Like warm apple pie"

[punkin]

T4 For washing I've been letting the still head sit in a cleaning solution then it gets a very good rinse out.

This want further investigation from the guessers i'd say.


Other than that you're smelling/tasting tails.

[harllequin1971]

The washes have been 23ltrs of aroud 10%. I've collected 3 ltr at the most. Only keeping about 1 to 1.5 ltrs of that for consumption.

[junkyard dawg]

well, I dunno...

like punkin said, that cleaning could be a concern. You want to let that column develop a patina, It doesn't need to be stripped to bare copper after a run... usually just a water rinse...

Flour paste is a very effective gasket... I don't care for the ptfe... but I doubt thats where the taste comes from.

You might try running low wines and then doing a slow spirit run...

[Usge]

Are you trying to do your cuts on single runs of your 10% wash using your potstill?

[harllequin1971]

In the main yes, thats what I've been doing. A single run.

[Usge]

Personally Harley, I've never found first runs (low-wines) out of a potstill to be all that refined tasting to start with. Some people like 'em..but in my experience, it all sort of runs together and it's very hard to make cuts on. Try doing 2 runs on it...a strip run collected all together save for the fores and a slower spirit run collecting in separate containers. Then smell/taste each jar.

If you want to do single runs ...probably something with more reflux..like a detuned fractional, or a thumper or etc. would be better.

[alwaysannoyed]

could the problem be in your mash? In beer brewing wet cardboard means that the low wine (beer), has oxidized, usually because of improper storage after fermentation. Did a run with a batch of beer I couldn't get around to bottling, on my pot still, hoping to give whiskey a try. Garbage in garbage out, and sure enough wet cardboard. Saved it anyway and put it through my collum, for a neutral spirit.

[zymos]

In beer brewing wet cardboard means that the low wine (beer), has oxidized, usually because of improper storage after fermentation.

Many people think that HSA (hot side aeration, in other words aeration of the hot wort before fermentation or even boiling) is also a significant source. Even though oxygen is driven off in the boil, the compounds have already formed by this point.

[Taosmax]

As a professional brewer with over a decade under my belt (quite literally) and 3 decades of home brewing, I can confidently confirm that hot side aeration will increase dissolved oxygen levels in beer. Any spashing or addition of oxygen at temperatures above 180F will cause hot side aeration. This will lead to oxydation down the road, UNLESS the wort is boiled after aeration. Boiling will drive off unwanted oxygen. That being said, I'm a total newbie to the world of distillation, so wet cardboard flavor like you're describing is out of my wheelhouse. I do know that the tails can be described as having a wet cardboard flavor, but since you're experiencing this phenomenon throughout the process, I don't see how it can be that simple. I don't know if that's any help, but it's my 2 drams worth.

[jonnys_spirit]

They probably figured it out after 15 years

Interesting nevertheless - It's common in a corn mash to use a mud mixer or similar on a drill to mix up the mash and whip O2 into it as well for good yeast activity.

Cheers!
-j

[Taosmax]

They probably figured it out after 15 years

Interesting nevertheless - It's common in a corn mash to use a mud mixer or similar on a drill to mix up the mash and whip O2 into it as well for good yeast activity.

Cheers!
-j

Well, one can only hope!

Aeration in the mash should pose no problems with regards to dissolved oxygen levels. It normally is only a problem at temperatures above 180F, and the fermentation process will drive off a fair amount of oxygen. We introduce oxygen to our wort after it has been cooled and is being transferred to a fermenter to encourage yeast activity as well.

[Setsumi]

They probably figured it out after 15 years

Interesting nevertheless - It's common in a corn mash to use a mud mixer or similar on a drill to mix up the mash and whip O2 into it as well for good yeast activity.

Cheers!
-j

Touché