uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[astronomical]

I ran some washes today and I still have a very minimal amount of spent grain. I dug around and none is hidden in the bed. Maybe others let it clear longer and the yeast eats more corn. Thats my best guess. I let it clear 24 hours and run it. I wonder if this actually has much of an impact on flavor. Regardless of whether or not I add nutrients, it always consumes the most grain on generation 1 (about 4X as much).

Im switching to bread yeast soon to see if I like its flavor better. I guess i'll also see if it consumes more of the grain.

[WalkingWolf]

I only disturb the bed when I put in new backset with melted sugar an new grain. I usually replace like 15 to 20% of the corn with each gen.

Do you stir it up completely or are we just talking about the dumping of the backset causing some disturbance? I'll stir one up in my run tomorrow and see if there is ineed a lot of wastage buried. Thanks Odin.

The grain bed will become compacted, especially if you give it several days to settle. I stir up the grain bed completely with each "restarting" of the ferment.

[clacker]

I'm finally in a position to ramp up production of UJSSM.

Do future generations benefit from taking the backset all the way to 20% if the feints aren't used in subsequent runs?

[troublestylist]

Correct. No scooping of spent grains - just a thorough stirring.
On a 23L (6usg) batch I get ~8L of strip (down to 10%abv) which leaves ~15L of backset, ALL of which I use.
It amounts to about 60% of the total volume of liquid added for each fermentation, requiring ~2T of Calcium Carbonate to keep the pH above 4.0.

I tried this 100% backset once (5th gen) and the low wines tasted salty. Have you ever had this problem?

I cut it back to half of the backset (33% total) for this last run (with only 1T of CC) and it seemed to finish a bit quicker. Haven't stripped it yet.

This sixth gen will be my last and then I'm moving to sweet feed. Haven't found anything that tasty in the corn yet, and the oaking (two weeks so far) is just making it worse. But the wash has been tasting better, so I'm hoping for a noticeable improvement in Batch #2 (Gens 4,5, and 6).

As a note, I used 2lbs of sugar per gallon of replaced water/backset, forgetting I was leaving a good gallon or two (of pre-alcoholized wash) in the bucket. This was getting me 14+% alcohol on EC-1118 yeast. This may be a bad thing for good flavors. Plus, my low wines are around 40%, so I need to cut them back before or after the spirit run anyways to get to oaking strength.

I think cutting it back to 1.6 lbs would get me more like 11-12%, then closer to 30% low wines, and no future dilution.

I also don't wait long for the wash to clear. It's still opaque when I run it. I'll give this one a few days to clear to see if it makes things smoother.

Thoughts?

[Odin]

If you used backing soda to up PH that might explain saltyness in your wash. That's why most use CC instead. Doesn't give salt build up in wash. If it isn't some salt you using, I don't know what can get you the salty taste.

[waylyn]

Is there a max amount of times you will run this,( gen I mean before fully replacing the corn and yeast) I use around 45% backset each time. I am now on my 14-15th gen always replacing the spent corn and the top 1" at least, I never add more yeast I use cc dap vit b tab and a pinch of epsom and until my current batch which took a day to get going all is well, the mash is nice and bitter to taste and the smell when distilling is fantastic a nice full flavoured corn taste loving it

[Odin]

Some people experienced lesser results after gen 10 and more. They blamed it on the yeast, as I understood it. In my gens the yeast just seems to get better and better. As if they get "used to" doing a UJSSM. Nonsence probably, but sure felt like that. It seems you are doing fine, no? At gen 15 and more ...

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

""yeast just seems to get better and better""
not nuts ,yeast can /will do that.

[waylyn]

Cheers Odin, I'm gonna stick with it as you say if it ain't broke don't try an fix it

[likkerluvver]

Correct. No scooping of spent grains - just a thorough stirring.
On a 23L (6usg) batch I get ~8L of strip (down to 10%abv) which leaves ~15L of backset, ALL of which I use.
It amounts to about 60% of the total volume of liquid added for each fermentation, requiring ~2T of Calcium Carbonate to keep the pH above 4.0.

I tried this 100% backset once (5th gen) and the low wines tasted salty. Have you ever had this problem?

Nope, I've never noticed a salty taste.

I think cutting it back to 1.6 lbs would get me more like 11-12%, then closer to 30% low wines, and no future dilution.

My recipe has evolved slightly:

If I use 10lbs of US sugar and all my backset from the previous run, I add water to 27L ABOVE the grain bed - giving ~9.8% (according to Parent Site calculator) plus some grain conversion.

If I use 4kg of CA sugar and all my backset from the previous run, I add water to 24L ABOVE the grain bed - giving ~9.9% (according to Parent Site calculator) plus some grain conversion.

I also don't wait long for the wash to clear. It's still opaque when I run it. I'll give this one a few days to clear to see if it makes things smoother.

Thoughts?

I don't wait for the wash to clear, I cold crash it overnight and always run it through a fine-mesh filter - seldom trapping much of anything.

[troublestylist]

If you used backing soda to up PH that might explain saltyness in your wash. That's why most use CC instead. Doesn't give salt build up in wash. If it isn't some salt you using, I don't know what can get you the salty taste.

Odin,

Sorry, I wasn't more clear. I used CC as well. I didn't take much chemistry, but it produces a "salt" as well, just with calcium instead of sodium. (Calcium acetate?). So it stands to reason that whatever is precipitating out of the wash after reacting with the acid could affect taste, but probably not as noticeable as sodium.

Maybe more clearing will help it fall to the bottom. After several generations, you've got ounces (if not pounds) of CC in there. So if that calcium compound isn't showing up in your glass, it's gotta be collecting in the lees.

Thanks, LL...I'll incorporate your tips. My current wash is the color of apple juice, but still opaque. Should it be at least semi-transparent? I should have put it outside last night. Maybe tonight. Dumb question...what does the cold do? Force the yeast to swim for the warmth and safety of the trub?

[blind drunk]

I like to rack the wash and then put it outside (when it's cold). The agitation and the cold helps more things fall to the bottom ...

[Odin]

Now that I do UJSSM with flaked grains instead of broken (or worse: grinded) grains, I feel that I can pretty much hoze the liquid out of the fermenter and distill right away. I do throw it thru ... yeah, what is it ... a thing the mss uses to get let the rice drip out after cooking it. Holds any flakes out of what I am about to distill. Close to none solids ever make it over. Never had burnings on my heating element.

Odin.

Edit: the grain bill, if you can call it that, has changed over time. I now use 62.5% flaked corn, 25% flaked rye and 12.5% flaked barley. I like the "upped" rye percentage. Gives it a bit more bite.

[likkerluvver]

Dumb question...what does the cold do? Force the yeast to swim for the warmth and safety of the trub?

Something like that

-10*C to -20*C for a few hours (depending on winter or freezer temperatures) for shock cooling and then bringing it into room temperature to warm back up for 24 hrs sure speeds clarification.

Take care if you are using a glass carboy/demijohn though!

[Odin]

Could it be that the cold helps degassing? Liquid shrinkin', pushin' CO2 out? Second thing that mite be going on is that yeast, in hostile environment tends to start sticking together going into some kinda sleeping status (inactive at least), where the yeast on the outside pretty much protects the yeast on the inside. When conditions improve, at least some yeast survived. Read that in that Swedisch homedistilling book I think ...

Odin.

[troublestylist]

Dumb question...what does the cold do? Force the yeast to swim for the warmth and safety of the trub?

Something like that

-10*C to -20*C for a few hours (depending on winter or freezer temperatures) for shock cooling and then bringing it into room temperature to warm back up for 24 hrs sure speeds clarification.

Take care if you are using a glass carboy/demijohn though!

Here in Sunny California it's supposed to be 70 F today (21C). We'll be lucky to get down to 5 C tonight...so I probably shouldn't expect much. But I can use my plastic bucket.

[likkerluvver]

Here in Sunny California it's supposed to be 70 F today (21C). We'll be lucky to get down to 5 C tonight...so I probably shouldn't expect much. But I can use my plastic bucket.

You guys have heard of freezers down there?

Not often that cold in Canada. Unless you're on the ice floes with all the other oldies, cast adrift to die away quietly. (Oh shit, I've been watching too much Rick Mercer.)

[Titus-a-fishus]

Well last weekend I distilled my latest UJSSM hoping the extra corn would add some flavour.
Did I tell you I make an awesome neutral with no flavour at all? Did it again.

So yesterday bit the bullet and shelled out for a digital PH meter.
Tested the latest and came back with a PH of 3.6......
Adjusted it with Calcium Carbonate and now have a PH of 4.8
Did have 20% backset in it as well.

Hmmm is that part of the problem?
Don't know - but will continue to try and find out why there is no flavour in my distilate.
Maybe next batch will be the flavoursome one.

Have also started a new 1st generation and the PH is 5.0 - so this time it can't be seen as a factor.
Still using dried bakers yeast.
So if I can't get flavour with the corrected PH and new corn .... will try a different yeast.

Cheers
TAF

[Prairiepiss]

How are you running it Titus-a-fishus?

[Odin]

Titus,

So bad that even with your new approach you do not get over taste. It starts to raise the question ... do you have problem tasting other things too? Just kidding off course. Why not try a sweet feed? With flaked grains? Oats have taste. I know! Lots of it! I even like it.

Odin.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey Odin
Mate the lack of ability to taste isn't such a silly thought.
Except I also had the missus taste the product and yes it is neutral.
So no problems there.

I just don't like to let a problem beat me.
It has to be something simple that I haven't hit upon yet
UJSSM is just that, --- simple
Corn, sugar, water and yeast.

One of them is out of balance and once I find it I'll get flavour.
Definitely want a corn likker.

As an addition thought.
The ability to get a neutral from a simple recipe is in itself a good thing.
Some complain about having too much corn flavour in their spirit.
So if we can say "By dong this and that, you can reduce the corn flavour to the point of having none"
It will be an advantage to other distillers as well.
Or it could be used just as a great way of making a neutral.
It is a really good recipe.

I will crack it eventually
Thanks for the encouragement
Cheers
TAF

[Odin]

Keep up that spirit, TAF!

Just a suggestion ... why don't you try to make an UJSSM without corn, but say from a 100% flaked rye or barley? Rye would be more close to the American whiskey herritage I guess ... Why? Just to find out if that does give you taste. You might not like it, because you are after corn taste, but if it gives you taste ... you learned some more. And if it doesn't, well, you learned something too!

Odin.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey PP
This is a long running battle
Using a potstill 2 5/8" copper
Here's a quote from back at page 49

TAF
Tell us about your still and take off rate? Are you taking off too fast?
It's a 2 5/8" pot still
Take off rate is about 8-900 ml hour
Was about right the first time which is why I am baffled as to why there is little to no taste now.

I Love my UJSSM. I get a great taste every time. I ran a batch today. I do a one run and done method. My poor excuse of a reflux column struggles to get 85 ABV when running a neutral but works pretty good for UJSSM and Rum.

For me, I run fast. To get the flavor to come through I use my parrot as my guide and take off at 60 – 70 ABV. I collect down to 40 ABV or lower. There is a ton of flavor in the tails.
I get from 75% down to 40% before quiting

Blending after airing helps with the heads cut and I am real careful there. I add the tails to my blend as needed to get a rich flavor before oaking.
Usually collect and blend the next day.
Use some of the tails which does have some flavour just not much..... tends to go into off tastes rather than flavour.

Maybe I'm just a bit anxious and need to wait on the next couple of generations.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=20998

TAF

I've collected over 30 litres since that time and still no flavour.
BUT
That seems to be because I have't hit the right buttons yet.
Tried different take of rates, different grains along with the corn
Tried using frozen sweet corn.
Tried baking the corn as well (a recipe from another forum)
Still the same result - a really decent neutral.

Hadn't tried adjusting the PH much as I didn't have the PH meter.
Hence the current experiments.

As stated many times before I love the recipe - but have yet to crack the flavour barrier.
Won't stop me making UJSSM cause it is such a great recipe for neutral.... well for me it is.

It's not an issue with the recipe just the excecution of it.
So by changing slowly I will find what I am doing wrong.... flavour wise.
As said above it is a really great recipe for a neutral - no off flavours.
So when I build my neutral stocks back up (now down to 17ltrs) it will be with UJSSM.

Just set 6 two litre jars of neural aside with just a few whisky chips/chunks in them
Will leave them for at least a year to flavour up,
Did this with one jar last year and it is veeery tastey.
Brought the more subtle notes out of the oak.
Just didn't put enough aside to have a decent stock last time
This time will be different

Cheers
TAF

[Prairiepiss]

Yeh I went back through and read that.

You doing a single run? Double run? Triple run?
Have you tried combining some stripped spirits to a wash for a single run?

Cause the one run I made had so much flavor in it. I didn't like it. That was through my reflux column.

[Titus-a-fishus]

Yeh I went back through and read that.
Thanks for looking
You doing a single run? Double run? Triple run?
Single run only

Have you tried combining some stripped spirits to a wash for a single run?
The only thing I add back into the ferment just before distilling is the tails from the previous run.

Cause the one run I made had so much flavor in it. I didn't like it.
Braggard
That was through my reflux column.

I will get there but just haven't tweeked the recipe correctly.
It will be something simple that I've missed I'm sure of that.

Cheers
TAF

[Prairiepiss]

Wow. Your getting a neutral out of UJSSM on a single run in a pot still? Hell most people can't get a neutral out of a neutral wash in a reflux still on a single run. Some can't do it on a double.

Like Odin suggested. Have you tried a different grain? Maybe just to compare and see if you can tell the difference?

[Titus-a-fishus]

Sorry Odin I didn't reply to your post

Might take your suggestion and run a totally different grain mix
No corn at all.

PP
Have tried a mixed grain with corn, wheat and rye.... still mostly corn though.
Same results.
Sliiiiightly different taste
And by that I mean you can just taste something in the background
It is still a neutral.

Ran it fast and slow
Cooked sweet corn
Baked sweet corn
Let the wash clear
Ran the wash uncleared

This latest experiment with other corn was a failure to change taste.
So the attempt to move on to the water PH is the next phase.

Have been rereading my experiments and can't see that the still diameter would make any difference
But
It is a strange size. 2 5/8"
Only went that way because it was free copper..... couldn't pass that up.
Have tried it with a 45 degree tilt upward and a 90 degree bend to see if either experiment made any difference .... still the same results - a neutral.
It's clutching at straws I know but.... willing to think of anything to change the results.

Would the diameter of the still make any difference?

The only constants in these experiments have been the water and yeast
So will try the water PH first and if not will try a different yeast.
Currently using dried bakers yeast.

I realise you are possibly alluding to me thinking I have a neutral, when it really may not be.....
Especially after only one run though a pot still.
Have thought of that as it has been expressed before that my taste buds may be up the sh*t.
But
I can taste subtle differences in oaked spirit, regularly ask the wife's opinion
Can't drink any commercial spirit any more as it tastes of what I call industrial solvent
Makes me sick.

The first time I did an UJSSM it had corn flavour, plenty of it.
Just every batch since hasn't.

My resulting spirit after one pass through a pot still may not (probably isn't) neutral as you know it.
But it has no discernable taste... hence I call it a neutral.
If I hadn't gotten a good result from the first batch I did, I'd happily agree with you

I have in no way taken offence.... and am happy to hear any theorys about what is wrong.

TAF

PS have corrected my bad spelling of neutral in as many posts as possible.... knew it looked odd

[waylyn]

has anyone run corn with oats, ifso what was the outcome in taste I mean

[frozenthunderbolt]

Could it be that your cuts are too tight? That seems way to obvious though

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey frozenthunderbolt
Can't see how that would affect the taste...
Am I missing something?

As for the cuts
Usually have a destinct break between heads and hearts and then the tails can be smeared in one or two jars before it is obvious.
So can't really see that is my problem
There is no taste of corn in any of them.

Thanks for the input

Cheers
TAF