How do I get the flavour I want from my oak?

[zirtico]

I want to approximate a good scotch, or Irish whisky. The peat isn't so much of a concern for me, but I'm after a clean, pure Glenlivet-style whisky. Last time, I toasted my white oak then gave it a moderate charring with my propane torch. My whisky took on a deep, rich, red colour which looked and smelled a lot like a sweet bourbon. This made me realize that perhaps to approximate a scotch, I need to "use" the oak once and add the used oak to my whisky.

After looking at how bourbon barrels are made, my initial thoughts are to cut my white oak into sticks about 1" x 1" x 5" and instead of toasting them, just apply a light char with my torch and let it burn on its own for a few seconds before quenching in water. Then I was thinking I would soak the sticks in some feints for a while to remove some of the stronger flavours in the oak. Then after extensive drying, I would add the now "used" oak to my whisky.

Do you think this would give me the flavour I'm going for?

[ga flatwoods]

Maybe but you still have to monitor it. You could use new but remove it much faster. Smaller sticks might help. But it is essentially the area of stick to time of saturation that yields the soaking.
Ga Flatwoods

[T-Pee]

Scotch makers don't even make cuts, it's all tossed in and time us used to smooth it out.

Can you imagine if they did?

tp

[ga flatwoods]

It would still taste scorched!

[zirtico]

Uhhhh....scotch makers don't make cuts????? Really??

[corene1]

To replicate Scotch and Irish whiskey as best I can I use oak that has previously been aging in a whiskey jar then when I pull my oak out of the whiskey I put it into another jar full of sherry and store it there. In time I will pull it out and put it into my jars that are for my Irish whiskeys and Scotch whiskys. It certainly isn't an aged sherry cask for sure but it is coming close. I also use 14 to 16 square inches of wood per quart with as little end grain exposed as possible. Think long and skinny. 3/4 by 3/4 by 4 inches long. I toast at 350 degrees for 3 hours and then char to a light alligator texture.

[corene1]

Scotch uses used barrels some are sherry some are bourbon barrels, then they sit for a very long time, like 12 years or more. Also there is a big difference between Irish whiskeys and scotches. Scotch makers don't even make cuts, it's all tossed in and time us used to smooth it out.

I looked up Glenlivet distillery as I do like this whisky. They do make cuts. http://us.theglenlivet.com/the-process/production" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


In the first stage of distillation, we heat the wash in our copper pot stills until the alcohol, which has a lower boiling point than water, evaporates. Based on the lantern shape originally designed by George Smith, these stills are unique to The Glenlivet. The width of their necks encourages maximum contact with the purifying copper. Their height ensures only the lightest vapours reach the top, where they cool, condense and become ‘low wines’ with an alcohol content of around 20 to 22%.



In the second stage of distillation, we distil the low wines in the spirit still. Once cooled, the resulting liquid is divided into three separate cuts by the stillman. He uses the spirit safe to separate the high alcohol liquid which comes out first (the ‘heads’); the desirable liquid of appropriate strength and quality (the ‘heart’); and the unusable liquid which comes out last (the ‘tails’). The heads and tails are recycled, and the heart goes into the spirit receiver.

[zirtico]

Thank you for that corene! I'm glad to have found another scotch enthusiast. And its good to know that used oak is the right stuff to add to new white whisky. I will take your advice on the oaking and see how it turns out after I've run this batch.

And I'm not surprised that Glenlivet makes cuts. I've been enjoying the 12 year old and its quite a nice light, fruity summer whisky. Can't wait for these yeast to finish fermenting!!

[corene1]

Thank you for that corene! I'm glad to have found another scotch enthusiast. And its good to know that used oak is the right stuff to add to new white whisky. I will take your advice on the oaking and see how it turns out after I've run this batch.

And I'm not surprised that Glenlivet makes cuts. I've been enjoying the 12 year old and its quite a nice light, fruity summer whisky. Can't wait for these yeast to finish fermenting!!

It took some time to get the oak close to being right. 2 to 3 months in regular American type whiskey, then a few months in the sherry. Now everything that comes out of an aging whiskey goes into a sherry jug. It also gives the Scotch or Irish whiskey a lighter color and mellows the sweet woody flavor. I really prefer less oak and a longer time for my whiskies though. I have tried a few good Scotch and Irish whiskies, but I am not into the Islay Isle Scotch. I have tried Lagavulin and Ardbeg. No good for me, way to peaty. Honestly my Favorite Irish Whiskey Is Kilbeggans and my favorite Scotch whisky is Macallans. Here is a tid bit. Did you know Only Scotch leaves out the e when they spell whisky? All the others use whiskey. Check it out.

[zirtico]

Interesting. Considering that the oak sticks are so thin, I would have assumed that after 6 months or so when added to white whisky, that there would be almost no flavour left in them! But I do think you're right in that less oak and more time yields a more subtle yet complex whisky than more oak and less time. The Islay whiskies are always a love/hate thing for most people. A lot of people find them way too peaty. I don't mind a Laphroaig once in a while, but a peaty Johnnie Walker's Double Black (nowhere near as peaty as Islay malts) is still nice. I really enjoy Glenfiddich and 'livet.

And yes, I did know that, but I was under the impression that everyone except the Irish spell it "whisky" and only the Irish spell it "whiskey".

[Saltbush Bill]

previously been aging in a whiskey jar then when I pull my oak out of the whiskey I put it into another jar full of sherry and store it there.

There are a few people around the different forums doing it that way and I believe most of them get good results.

condense and become ‘low wines’ with an alcohol content of around 20 to 22%.

Heres another bit of a hint, now when you normally do a strip run you pull out at around about 20 -25% ABV , This gives you an average of roughly 40% for your total run of low wines. When the Scots strip Whisky they go all the way, basically stripping down to the end, From what Ive learned that's how they get those figures.
Ive tried a couple of home made Scotch style Whisky's that have been pretty good . Both of the blokes who made them use both of the above methods.

[zirtico]

Yeah I usually strip until my average ABV for my low wines is ~30%. Nothing wrong with going lower of course, but if you carry a little less tails over into the spirit run then you have a little more room to work with.

[zirtico]

Yeah I usually strip until my average ABV for my low wines is ~30%. Nothing wrong with going lower of course, but if you carry a little less tails over into the spirit run then you have a little more room to work with.

[planethax]

Thanx to corene1s post I had to go see what a spirit safe was lol

Interesting.

Spirit safe
From Wikipedia,

A spirit safe is a large, padlocked, glass walled, usually brass bound container found at Scotch whisky distilleries which allows the distiller to analyse and manage the spirit coming out of the pot still without coming into contact with the spirit itself.
History

The origins of the spirit safe date back to 1823 when a change in the duty laws allowed small Highland distilleries to compete fairly with the much larger Lowland distilleries. The change brought a number of distillers who had previously operated illegally within the law.

These laws were rigorously enforced and one of the main ways of enforcement was the spirit safe which prevented anyone siphoning off the new make spirit to avoid paying duty on it at the point in the whisky-making process it was most vulnerable, just as the spirit came out the stills before the quantity had been measured.

This is why spirit safes carry large, obvious padlocks, and why all the manipulation and measurement takes place behind its glass panels, using controls on the front of the spirit safe. Until 1983 only the local officer from the Customs and Excise, who measured how much spirit was produced, had access to the keys for the safe.[4] Since then the keys have been held by the distillery manager as well as Customs and Excise to ensure compliance by analysing the returns from a range of distilleries.
Diagram detailing a typical triple distillation spirit

The first liquid to emerge from the spirit condenser as the spirit still is heated is the undesirable foreshots, and these are directed from the spirit safe to the low wines and feints receiver for re-distillation.[5] But gradually the undesirable methyl alcohol content reduces and what emerges is the spirit that will end up as whisky. The distiller has to judge the right moment to redirect the flow of product to the spirit receiver instead of the low wines receiver. This is when the alcohol content, measured by a hydrometer in the spirit safe, falls to 75%, or when the emerging spirit no longer turns water cloudy, another test conducted remotely inside the spirit safe.

The alcohol content of the emerging liquid continues gradually to fall during the run. When it reaches a point between 70% and 60% alcohol by volume, again as measured by a hydrometer within the spirit safe, the flow is switched away from the spirit receiver and back to the low wines and feints receiver, again for re-distillation. The precise point at which this switch takes place depends on the character of the whisky being produced, but for a particular whisky this will always happen at the same point in the run.

[Saltbush Bill]

become ‘low wines’ with an alcohol content of around 20 to 22%.

but if you carry a little less tails over into the spirit run then you have a little more room to work with.

Yes but ask yourself why are they doing this. It takes time and energy to strip down that far, both of these are things that commercial distillers don't like to waste if they can avoid it. There must be some benefit or they wouldn't be doing it that way.
Could it be that a lot of the flavour for good scotches is coming from the late tails of these strip runs? A bit like Pugies Rum method.

[Dan P.]

I would certainly strip an AG wash down to the bone.
My other thoughts on the Scotch style;
Recycling feints; probably need to get 5-10 cycles of feints in spirit runs before you start to get that crazy estery flvour bomb of a good malt.
Careful wood management; a tough call, I think what can be said has been said- used oak, maybe a toast rather than a char.
Cheating; the Scotch producers are great cheats. They pressure infuse barrels with sherry, stuff like that. A lot of artifice. A lot of caramel used. I'm drinking a malt right now, not top shelf, but anyhow there is no way in hell it got as dark a colour (bourbon colour) as it has from used oak, besides which I can taste the caramel, loud and clear.

[Saltbush Bill]

Recycling feints; probably need to get 5-10 cycles of feints in spirit runs before you start to get that crazy estery flvour bomb of a good malt.

[corene1]

I would certainly strip an AG wash down to the bone.
My other thoughts on the Scotch style;
Recycling feints; probably need to get 5-10 cycles of feints in spirit runs before you start to get that crazy estery flvour bomb of a good malt.
Careful wood management; a tough call, I think what can be said has been said- used oak, maybe a toast rather than a char.
Cheating; the Scotch producers are great cheats. They pressure infuse barrels with sherry, stuff like that. A lot of artifice. A lot of caramel used. I'm drinking a malt right now, not top shelf, but anyhow there is no way in hell it got as dark a colour (bourbon colour) as it has from used oak, besides which I can taste the caramel, loud and clear.

You do know how to infuse sherry into oak quickly don't you? Take your 1/2 gallon mason jar , fill it full with used oak then fill with sherry. Get your food saver vacuum out and put a vacuum lid on it and pull a vacuum on the mason jar. Let it sit for a few weeks that way and make sure to check the vacuum occasionally.

Just wanted to add that good color can be obtained from old oak. I had to go outside and take a picture of some whiskey I have aging at 60% and jarred up at 43%. You can see the color change from cutting it down , but there is a lot of color in the aging spirit . This is a modified sweetfeed recipe. It is done as an all grain mash and molasses is added after the enzymes have done their conversion.

[zirtico]

That's a good idea. And wow, that's one heck of a change after cutting down to 43%. Mine haven't changed that much when cutting from 66% down to 43%.

[Dan P.]

You do know how to infuse sherry into oak quickly don't you? Take your 1/2 gallon mason jar , fill it full with used oak then fill with sherry. Get your food saver vacuum out and put a vacuum lid on it and pull a vacuum on the mason jar. Let it sit for a few weeks that way and make sure to check the vacuum occasionally.

That's an interesting technique, Corene. On this forum and others I have read of people just putting a few teaspoons of sherry into the oaking jar.

[MDH]

Here's all the specifics on scotch in the simplest way I can put them.

The use varieties that are typically ones like optic; those looking for best taste will buy varieties like Golden Promise, or newer ones like Maris Otter. All will be kilned at 10-30L. Some scottish distilleries secretly use small amounts of toasted malts from 2-10% in quantity to add depth.

Yeast wise, some use ale yeasts at an usually high temperature (20-23 celcius) and then finish with a professional distiller's yeast at a high temperature (30-37) since ale yeasts are low attenuating. Laphroig, for instance, ferments at well over 32 celcius. This allows the intense fruitiness of the beer to develop. I believe this hot fermentation temperature and the selection of a very fruity, phenol producing yeast is essential.

Last but not least, almost all Scottish whisky is indeed aged in once-used oak, but the reactions that create lovely Scotch flavors is due in large part to the forming of ester compounds from alcohol with wood compounds. When you burn wood, you get compounds similar to caramel. Lots of carboxylic acids. The actual forming of esters takes years. There is a man named Jim Swan who is an expert on this subject; you may want to email him, though I don't recommend identifying yourself as a home distiller.

Last but not least, do pay attention to how the barrels are made. They are crafted from carefully selected wood and allowed to "age" before even being sold. The wood undergoes chemical changes during that time.

[zirtico]

Thanks, MDH.

As an update, I soaked 3 oak sticks in my old whisky for a bit to remove the initial redness and caramel sweetness. I ran my new batch and threw the used sticks in there. A slight pale gold / amber colour starting to come through now, definitely no real traces of red in it. Looks more like a single malt than a bourbon. The waiting game is on...