Column/condenser help

[J4k3]

Hi, had the idea for building a still for a while, being from northern England, pretty tight.
I've been playing with this idea for over a year, researching things and trying to read as much as I can. I joined this forum a while a go to be able to look a bit deeper but it seems the more I like the more confused I get.

I'm very much a person who learns through trial and error so I'm yet to discover what I require out of a still.

I have collected a lot of parts, pipe, fittings, I have a beer keg and an old copper boiler.

My aim initially is to buil a reflux still capable of producing a nice sipping vodka, that I can then flavour should I wish.

I enjoy building things have lots of tooling at my disposal and I am really enjoying this build, however it's difficult to understand what I need to build as o don't fully under stand the process, at least not until I trial it.

My plan so far is to use a beer keg with a weld in immersion heater nut at the side and the top,
2.76kw element in the side then A copper column.

Now the problem is I was originally going out packing in then put a cooks in the top and plates to collect but after having a read I think it may be better to use a "Nixon" offset cinder style set up?

If this is right could I fully pack my column then just add a offset cooling condenser coil?


I understand the process that the wash is heated till the alcohol steams off and then roses and is then cooled to liqued, but oddest columns baffle me a bit. So do the taps that are on the out put tube of the column.

If someone could take a bit of time to explain it would be greatly appreciated

I'm looking to build. A still that would far surpass my talents, but also look good so I won't have to hide it away

[still_stirrin]

With vodka (neutral) as your target...you definitely want a reflux column. There are different types, of which the Nixon-Stone is one, a liquid managed (LM) offset head. The Bokabob is another, probably easier to build and probably easier to run too. Both will produce a clean neutral however.

I use a combination LM/VM, a concentric LM with a vapor managed (VM) side take off. I collect heads through the LM and then close the liquid takeoff valve. After a short time of reflux stabilization, I open the VM valve and collect through the shotgun product condenser. I can get to 190 proof with the still head with 40%ABV low wines. The VM runs faster than a purely run LM head, but I get the benefits of the heads compression through the concentric LM collection.

Since you're new here, I would STRONGLY recommend you read through the spoon feed thread link in my signature. Also, read up on the different types of stills in the column forum.

And I believe that a simple potstill is a valuable addition to any neutral producer because it allows you to strip many washes to low wines and then you can run them through your reflux column. I believe in using the "right tool for the job", even if it means slightly more incidental cost up front. "Buy once...cry once", as the saying goes.

Knowing what you want to produce will help you to design the proper system to help you attain your goal. But, you need to know a lot of information about what you don't even know that you don't know yet before you proceed "blindly" into the hobby. So, start with the spoon feed and progress from there.

Be safe. Be responsible. And be discrete.
ss

[J4k3]

Thanks for the reply, been reading through your list for the last few weeks, and it's cleared a few things up. Some really useful information, as a bit of constructive feedback as a newbie, I lurked on here for some time using the search function to search for answers to my questions, as i'd imagine most new people would, but these threads didn't show up (or probably did but far down the results), the links in your spoon fed post were very comprehensive and have answered and raised questions that have then required further reading, if this was to show at the top of searches or something it could be handy for new people. Hope that doesn't sound negative in any way just a bit of feedback that could help prevent a few annoying first posts like mine

Anyway I have read up and I think I have as much knowledge as my head can handle without giving this a go, so I am preparing to buy the rest of the items I need to finish building.

I have decided to go with a different design than I had originally I found this posted by myles and have decided to go with this concept.

I have three questions about it that I think are the last little bits I need to clarify to feel ready to give it a go.

1. Can anyone see any issues with this plan that I might of over looked?

]

I have 54mm column packed about 1400mm high with copper then a male and female threaded joint to connect the head, then reduce to 28mm, T at the top left side a lever ball valve in horizontal, keeping the horizontal as short as possible, on the right all still in 28mm another T, at the bottom 8mm returning to the main column just above the threaded joint, at the top of the T increase back to 54mm and have more copper packing, then. 90' to the horizontal condenser (slightly angled to take off) use 10mm to return to just above the packing. I understand this may be difficult to picture so if I get my laptop back soon I will put some dimensions on to the picture.

2. Can anyone clarify the way this heads trap bit works?
From what I understand is that as the wash heats up and the fore shots and heads rises it goes to highest point, condenses returns to the second lot of packing where it converts back to vapour, possibly even returns to the first lot of packing early during stabilisation, so once stabilised it is stuck in a loop at the very top. (Really struggled with understanding the 'flow', very visual and hands on type of learner)

3. Am I right in thinking that the operation of this would be to turn the heating element on and wait for the still to stabilise and then just open the vm port to collect the hearts? So I would not need to open the valve below the condenser to drain the foreshore or the heads.


Oh and one about liebigs, I have read about them choking the product take off, I had thought I would reduce down from 28mm to something like 10mm to run through the liebig, and inside the liebig I would loosely coil the product pipe to increase its path through the water jacket, I havnt found anywhere that mentioned sizes I know I would stay 28mm until after the 90' and was traveling down.

Any guidance is much appreciated

[Danespirit]

Well, the design itself is ok and Myles is a experienced builder/distiller.
But fact is..this is far more complicated to build than it needs to be.
Now i don't know your skills with tools or what kind of tools you have access to, but with two external refluxlines, offset LM etc...this build requires more fittings than necessary.
Further it will require some good metalwork skills to get a decent result out of it.
My advice would be to ditch the Nixon Stone concept alltogether, ...hmm...i belive Bellybuster was complaining about his slow N S still.
There are better and easier designs to build.
If you want a LM/VM combo, why not make a VM with a LM on top of it...? It would be way easier to build than the design you are proposing.
Still stirrin gave you good advice...also with a potstillhead. Surely i wouldn't be without mine, as it serves two purposes...stripping and/or whisky distilling.
Edit Oh..btw i forgot to answer your questions:

2. Can anyone clarify the way this heads trap bit works?
From what I understand is that as the wash heats up and the fore shots and heads rises it goes to highest point, condenses returns to the second lot of packing where it converts back to vapour, possibly even returns to the first lot of packing early during stabilisation, so once stabilised it is stuck in a loop at the very top. (Really struggled with understanding the 'flow', very visual and hands on type of learner)

As the vapors rise they eventually reach the refluxcondenser. Now as they change from vapor to liquid again , they simply drip straight down into the small collection reservoir below.
On this reservoir there is a valve that allows to bleed off the foreshots and heads.
If the valve is closed, the reflux takes the path through the refluxline and into the still again. From there straight down and eventually it ends in refluxline two.
Both lines are with a 90 degree bend on them to create a liquidlock, that prevents vapor to travel directly through them.

3. Am I right in thinking that the operation of this would be to turn the heating element on and wait for the still to stabilise and then just open the vm port to collect the hearts? So I would not need to open the valve below the condenser to drain the foreshore or the heads.

No.. The idea with the headstrap/reservoir is to bleed off foreshots and heads as explained, and THEN open the VM path for the vapor.
It will prevent your productcondenser from contamination off heads/foreshots.

Oh and one about liebigs, I have read about them choking the product take off, I had thought I would reduce down from 28mm to something like 10mm to run through the liebig, and inside the liebig I would loosely coil the product pipe to increase its path through the water jacket, I havnt found anywhere that mentioned sizes I know I would stay 28mm until after the 90' and was traveling down.

10mm diameter for a Leibig will be way to tiny on a VM..!
By "coiling" the productpipe, you will end up with a Grahamcondenser and not a Liebig..which one do you want to build..?
Have a look at my little "aftercooler" here... : http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=54834

[J4k3]

I'm confused, I thought the point of this design was that the bit directly above the top most valve where the blue squiggly lines are was to trap the heads? That this would be built to hold the volume of heads you expect and that the level that chamber holds is directly controlled by how far up the reflux return line goes in the top heads column?

I understand what you have said about drawing off heads via the valve etc, as per a standard vm/lm set up such as a double slant plate above a vm take off, but I was under the impression that this design was an offset lm head that would trap the heads and make this part 'automatic'

As for the pc I'll read up about that this evening

[Danespirit]

Well, the intention with this device might very well has been to trap the heads.
Anyhow, this can cause a little problem.
Sure one could calculate and measure the "standart" amount of foreshots and heads and dimension the reservoir from those datas.
But as this still has only one refluxcondenser, the rest of the distillate will mingle with the heads in the reservoir, unless they are bleed off prior.
So one would have the rest of the run contaminated with the stuff already in the reservoir, rendering the device (as a headstrap) useless.

Edited to add:
The simpler way to do it would be like the drawing i attached.
Sorry for the crappy drawing, but i think you get the picture.
You would eliminate one refluxline, and have a reservoir with a drainvalve at the bottom.
A slight angle on the reflux return, would assure everything is drained as long as the valve is open.
Close the valve...and have all reflux returned to the column.
Note...the 90 degree bend on the refluxline is still there...and HAS to be there.
On my VM/LM combo i didn't bother with external refluxlines etc. i simply made a reservoir in my condenserhousing and attached a drainvalve.
A deflectorplate on my coil, ensures the reflux won't drip straight down the column again, but drain to the side where it can be taken off via the valve.
My coils: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=52290

image.png (3.3 KiB) Viewed 1465 times

[J4k3]

So I take it these are essentially the same but at the top of your packing in heads column you have a virtical condenser? And this is operated like an lm still until ready for the hearts then it's operate like a vm?

Would a resivoir like in the first drawing mean that the heads could be drawn off at a quicker rate?

I had come to this design after reading about keeping reflux path clear of the product take off area and also speeding up heads removal.

[still_stirrin]

So I take it these are essentially the same but at the top of your packing in heads column you have a virtical condenser? And this is operated like an lm still until ready for the hearts then it's operate like a vm?

Would a resivoir like in the first drawing mean that the heads could be drawn off at a quicker rate?

I had come to this design after reading about keeping reflux path clear of the product take off area and also speeding up heads removal.

Very good explanation and direction Danespirit.

J4k3, the Nixon-Stone offset head is an older design (very effective, granted) but a little more complicated to build. I would suggest looking at Rad's concentric design for the LM collection cup.

It's an annular cup that collects the condensing liquids (instead of the slanted plates the Boka uses). The concentric reduces from the 2" column down to 1" ID (or possibly 1-1/4" ID) and that inner diameter forms a cup in the upper condenser core (not a wound coil, but a pipe in a pipe somewhat like a Liebig condenser). Mine is a 2" outer shell with an 1-1/2" inner shell, which leaves me a 1/4" annular cup to collect the liquids in.

One big advantage of the concentric reflux condenser is that it uses static pressure changes in the flowing vapor to enhance the condensation process. As the vapor accelerates through the throat section and slows down when it enters into the condenser chamber it initiates condensation on the inner wall of the condenser. That liquid drips down to the annular collection cup and collects, spilling over when enough liquid is collected. That spillover then is reflux back into the center of the column.

If you look at Rad's build, you'll see that you don't really even need to buy expensive fittings because you can wrap copper wire or tubing around the inner diameter to fill the gap to the next larger pipe diameter. Once soldered in place, it's a very good structural closed loop system.

And as Danespirit described, you reflux as the lighter/higher alcohols and solvents in the fores and heads collect at the top. A smaller volume for the liquid collection helps reduce the smearing between fores/heads and hearts. And once you've collected the fores and early heads through the LM takeoff, then you can open your VM valve and proceed collecting the late heads and hearts down to the early tails. With the VM, you'll see that production just about stops when you reach the tails, so if you want to drive deeper then you can switch back to LM controls.

In conclusion, the N-S is a slick looking still head, but it is a little more complicated to build and dial in. I like the combination LM/VM still head because of the flexibility in the way it runs. I am a HUGE advocate for the concentric LM because of the simplicity and ease of operation. And I like to run VM through the hearts as it is very easy to run...just let it do its thing.
ss

[RedwoodHillBilly]

You might also want to look at DAD300s CCVM build. It is dead simple to build and run. So many choices. As an old engineer told me, "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"

[Danespirit]

So I take it these are essentially the same but at the top of your packing in heads column you have a virtical condenser? And this is operated like an lm still until ready for the hearts then it's operate like a vm?

Would a resivoir like in the first drawing mean that the heads could be drawn off at a quicker rate?

I had come to this design after reading about keeping reflux path clear of the product take off area and also speeding up heads removal.

Yep...exactly..!

The takeoffrate isn't determined by the physical meassurements of the reservoir.
It's entirely dependent on powerinput and how clean a endproduct you want.
As your refluxrate goes up, your takeoffrate goes down.

Well, you want to design your still in a way so the falling reflux don't splash into your takeoff, rendering the whole design of a packed column worthless.

Excellent advice by Ss to look at RAD's concentric LM head. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=36382
If placed on top at a column with a VM takeoff, it could be the answer for your quest about a LM/VM combo still.
Would even allow you to run pure LM or use it as a potstill.
Further it can be build very simple with handyman tools and a torch (in copper).
If you have access to a TIG welder and know how to use it (know someone that can), it could be stainless steel...

[Bushman]

You have been given good advice for both the LM & VM stills. The one part that it seems you have ruled out is the CM still. In your opening post you said mainly vodka but would like to flavor for whiskey, adding flavoring does not get you the quality you will want after a while in the hobby. I ran a VM for years but love my CM for it's versitility. Unless by your statement on flavoring you mean infused drinks for liqueurs.

[J4k3]

This concentric condenser, if I've understood it correctly this is purely a water jacket around the top of the column that condenses the vapour upon contact and the condensate runs down the wall of the film. To be collected by a small cup and drawn off? So there is no reflux coil?

This would be above the vm take off and operated in the same manor as any other lm?

If I was to use this design I would be using a 54mm putter jacket and 28mm feed in (from the 28mm vm take off point) with 35mm inner jacket. What sort of length would be adequate?

I have a 2760watt element I can use.

I mainly want to make neutral spirit then infuse some of it, in the future I may try whiskey but I'd make a pot still head to fit my boiler.

I have a large beer keg for a boiler at the moment and a 75l copper boiler for my next one so once I get my head around it I will probably turn the copper boiler into a still that can produce product well at a fast rate and use the wet keg as a pot still.

I can get all fittings and pipe etc at trade price so reducers and t pieces etc arnt an issue, I also have a lathe' milling machine, hydraulic press, mig, oxy acetylene, small furnace etc etc in my spare time I build motorbikes and cars so I'm not worried about something being a bit tricky to build, I just want to make sure the thing I build will do the job I want it to, which is produce a quality neutral spirit as easy as possible and as quickly as possible.

I decided on a vm as I had read that once it's taking hearts you can pretty much leave it to do its thing, which means I can get on with other things and let that run in the background.

If I run the concentric style of condenser I can up my power input and draw off heads faster, is that correct?

Am I right to think that if I wanted to run this as an lm take off above a vm take off (without contaminating the product take off area) that the take off line would come from the collection cup at the bottom of the concentric condenser and have a valve on but also a reflux return line below the vm take off point?

Hopefully go shopping tomorrow or Saturday for the parts and get cracking on Saturday with building it.

Cheers

[still_stirrin]

....So there is no reflux coil?

Correct.

...What sort of length would be adequate?

Mine is 16" long. It'll handle the 4.5kW heat input as needed. But I only need around 2kW +/- for full reflux. More and I start to flood my 2" glass marble packed column.

...If I run the concentric style of condenser I can up my power input and draw off heads faster, is that correct?

Well, you are limited in vapor flow by the packing (type & density) and the column length and diameter (and height of packing). Too much heat will cause flooding provided your reflux condenser is powerful enough to knock all the vapor down.

...Am I right to think that if I wanted to run this as an lm take off above a vm take off (without contaminating the product take off area) that the take off line would come from the collection cup at the bottom of the concentric condenser and have a valve on but also a reflux return line below the vm take off point?

You don't need a reflux return line like on the N-S LM head because the concentric will fill the cup with condensate and then spill over the cup back to the vapor tube and return to the column in the center.

You want the cup sized to retain 1 to 4 ounces, but keeping it around 2 to 3 ounces will minimize the smearing. As this collection cup fills with condensate, which it will during your initial reflux stabilization, you adjust the liquid takeoff rate by the needle valve. It can be increased in speed up to the rate at which your condenser knocks down the rising vapors.

Here's an (ugly) picture of my combo head. You'll see I have a vinyl jacketed Liebig cooler for the liquid takeoff (it's the curly coil).

[still_stirrin]

This is the condenser during the build. Notice I flattened some small tubing and soldered it around the 1-1/2" condenser inner tube. That's the condenser's inner wall. The pipe is open at the top and concentric with the 1" vapor tube.

Concentric condenser in work

This is the view from the bottom, where it will attach to the VM 2x2x1-1/2 tee.

Vapor inlet below the condenser

You'll not that I used rolled tubing to make some of my diameter changes because they're shorter and much less costly. I followed Rad's advice to do so and it worked great. But you've got to pay attention when soldering thing up.

It took me a long while to build my equipment. But that way, I got it right for the way I want it to function.
ss

[J4k3]

You want the cup sized to retain 1 to 4 ounces, but keeping it around 2 to 3 ounces will minimize the smearing. As this collection cup fills with condensate, which it will during your initial reflux stabilization, you adjust the liquid takeoff rate by the needle valve. It can be increased in speed up to the rate at which your condenser knocks down the rising vapors.

In terms of operating it, as the still stabilises, could I have the valve open to collect the condensate as its produced or would I still have to wait for it to stabilise first?

Here's an (ugly) picture of my combo head. You'll see I have a vinyl jacketed Liebig cooler for the liquid takeoff (it's the curly coil).

There's a lot going on there I like it. Why do you have a Liebig on your lm take off?

[Danespirit]

You can read about operating the stills here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=13265
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=15508

If you take a look at my Ethylisator (link in my signature), you can see the principle is basically like the concentric from RAD.
A vapourtube as a "core" and a outshell that provides cooling and does the magic.
Still stirrin made a great and very versatile still there.
The idea of the Liebig on the LM side, is to provide extra cooling for the distillate.
A typical LM as for example a Boka would originally rely on the refluxcondenser as the only coolingmethod, thus the warm product.
Thoughts went in the same direction as my "aftercooler" i linked to in my post previously. I can use it as additional cooling on my Ethylisator, during the summertime when the tapwater is relatively warm.
He went with the more elegant coiled solution, think he wanted it to take up less space.
Putting a tube in a tube would be very difficult without special tools to bend/shape the piping, hence the vinyl hose as a outershell.

[J4k3]

You can read about operating the stills here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=13265
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=15508

I understand how lm and vm still are operated, I don't understand how this concentric style of condenser has an advantage over a coil condenser? Would 16" of a double wound coil condenser not be able to perform just as well? If the concentric is operated in the same manor as other lm designs then surely it's only advantage is its condensing capabilities which I think then begs the question of how that would compare to other options if they were scaled up to them dimensions.

If you take a look at my Ethylisator (link in my signature), you can see the principle is basically like the concentric from RAD.
A vapourtube as a "core" and a outshell that provides cooling and does the magic.
Still stirrin made a great and very versatile still there.
The idea of the Liebig on the LM side, is to provide extra cooling for the distillate.
A typical LM as for example a Boka would originally rely on the refluxcondenser as the only coolingmethod, thus the warm product.
Thoughts went in the same direction as my "aftercooler" i linked to in my post previously. I can use it as additional cooling on my Ethylisator, during the summertime when the tapwater is relatively warm.
He went with the more elegant coiled solution, think he wanted it to take up less space.
Putting a tube in a tube would be very difficult without special tools to bend/shape the piping, hence the vinyl hose as a outershell.

I will take a look at that this evening and have a read

What I meant was, why have a Liebig to cool heads? Obviously it's needed for the vm take off and if it was just an lm still then again obviously it would cool the product to get better readings, but I'm just trying to understand why have it on if it's just product that will be discarded? Is it to give the option to run in full lm mode or full vm mode or a combination? Or is it to lower the temperature of the heads to read the proof? Or is it a completely different reason?

I like the design of the heads just want to understand it more before I start building

[still_stirrin]

J4k3,
The Liebig coil cools the liquid...what ever liquid is collected off the LM valve. I built it this way for versatility. I can run purely LM if I want to...and I have on occasion run only the LM. It gives me operational options. The Liebig simply cools the product so I can collect it (when I measure the proof) in jars for airing and later making the cuts.

Without the Liebig, the liquid comes out hot....too hot to manage. If I was only running LM, all of the collection would be too hot to measure without secondary cooling.

Why? That's why I did it YMMV.

And for the question regarding rolling a coil and the concentric condenser...make both and see which is easier to make and which functions better. Go for it!
ss

[J4k3]

J4k3,
The Liebig coil cools the liquid...what ever liquid is collected off the LM valve. I built it this way for versatility. I can run purely LM if I want to...and I have on occasion run only the LM. It gives me operational options. The Liebig simply cools the product so I can collect it (when I measure the proof) in jars for airing and later making the cuts.

Without the Liebig, the liquid comes out hot....too hot to manage. If I was only running LM, all of the collection would be too hot to measure without secondary cooling.

Why? That's why I did it YMMV.

And for the question regarding rolling a coil and the concentric condenser...make both and see which is easier to make and which functions better. Go for it!
ss

Cool, I had gathered it would be for versatility but don't like to assume.

Again I'm not concerned with something being easy to make or difficult to make, after all it's only a couple of hours of work. I would like to make something that makes heads removal as fast and as easy as possible.

Not sure I'll be able to find anything though

[Danespirit]

What I meant was, why have a Liebig to cool heads? Obviously it's needed for the vm take off and if it was just an lm still then again obviously it would cool the product to get better readings, but I'm just trying to understand why have it on if it's just product that will be discarded? Is it to give the option to run in full lm mode or full vm mode or a combination? Or is it to lower the temperature of the heads to read the proof? Or is it a completely different reason?

The only stuff you want to discard, are the foreshots..heads are reused in the next strippingrun.
Heads contain a large amount of useable alcohol, that is contaminated with the chemicals from the foreshots.
So good practice would be to salvage as much of the ethanol as one could, instead of throwing them away..
I must say, even the foreshots come handy to me...i use them as a multipurpose cleaningsolution.