intentionally infecting a ferment

[firewater69]

great job MCH! I'm glad you followed through. now just pm me and I will give you the address to send me a sample. I'm gonna do a sample mash of cracked corn and home malted oats to see if I can convert the corn and then I'm starting a lacto in it. hopefully I'm right behind you with the lacto funk.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

That is the second best news I heard today. Can't say first best due to rule 4.
My bucket is still sitting in the unheated basement just sitting there. Every now and then I hear a very feint whispering coming from the basement saying "use me now damn it". I am gonna try to get goods to ferment tommarrow. I am thinking about using it to start a uj ferment up

My friend, I have a half gallon of that lacto UJ that I ran 5 months ago. Had panickry over for a sample of all my aging jars, and we agreed. The lacto sugarhead lacked the bite that the other UJ's did. It was up with my AG's . Can't hurt a sugar head. Have to imagine it can only make an AG that much better, too.

MCH, I have been wondering what to put back in that jar you sent me a while back to return to you. I thin it will be my lacto run. It was either a gen 1 or gen 2 that sat and had a small lacto for 6 months. I think you're ready . Although it may not be. I have a 6 month rule. Almost there.

[jedneck]

http://www.wildfermentationforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Aww shit I'll be back later.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

http://www.wildfermentationforum.com
Aww shit I'll be back later.

Lol. Jed found the homeland.

[jedneck]

Didn't find much for our purposes YET. But did see a bunch for preserving the garden harvest.

[firewater69]

there's some neat stuff there, thanks Jed!

[jedneck]

http://embracethefunk.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Found another.

[masonsjax]

One of the best resources for sour and funky beer is Michael Tonsmiere, author of the book American Sour Beer. His blog has tons of recipes and info, including a huge list of commercial beers that have viable yeast and bacteria that can be harvested for home use.
http://www.themadfermentationist.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[MichiganCornhusker]

Wow, some great resources there, guys, thanks for posting the links!

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

So I got to ask something. In the light of all this naughty goodness of doing what you're not supposed to do, I quote my buddy Jimbo, an excerpt from my personal grail on the quest to all grain:

But watch it and dont let it go longer than 7 days ever. The corn was pastuerized, the 8 lbs malt not, so the bugs will take off on you and feed on the yeast autolyses products and youll risk ruining a batch of nice bourbon fixens.

So what does bugs mean? What "nasties" does the malt bring? I make sure to only mash my Bourbons when I KNOW I will have time the following weekend to run it. Soooo. What happens if I don't? Does it get an infection and get better anyway?

[DAD300]

I live in the South, lots of molds and heat around. I never see an infection in less than 14-20 days.

But if it does get infected...run it and judge for yourself. I've never thought it ruined any thing.

[Brutal]

So I got to ask something. In the light of all this naughty goodness of doing what you're not supposed to do, I quote my buddy Jimbo, an excerpt from my personal grail on the quest to all grain:

But watch it and dont let it go longer than 7 days ever. The corn was pastuerized, the 8 lbs malt not, so the bugs will take off on you and feed on the yeast autolyses products and youll risk ruining a batch of nice bourbon fixens.

So what does bugs mean? What "nasties" does the malt bring? I make sure to only mash my Bourbons when I KNOW I will have time the following weekend to run it. Soooo. What happens if I don't? Does it get an infection and get better anyway?

"Bugs" are bacteria other than our yeast. And yea.. they're "bugs" too. Malt is never Pasteurized because heating it high enough to do so would wreck the enzymes in the malt. The problem with allowing an infection is you don't know what you are gonna get. So this really can end badly.

[jedneck]

I'm fermenting in the mid 60'sF. Might be a little cool, but it looks like a dead heat right now between the lacto and the yeasties.
I prefer doing my stillin' in the fall-spring zone. Cooler temps, no bugs, better ferments.

I have a 20 gallon flour ferment that has been sitting for a couple months due to temp stall.its been 55-60 degrees in the basement. I normally use bakers yeast but with the warm late winter I haven't had the stove in the basement going. So to try and start it back up I dumped a gallon+ of Michigan corn funk into it. So much for potstilled vodka.
Fingers crossed.

[jedneck]

I'm fermenting in the mid 60'sF. Might be a little cool, but it looks like a dead heat right now between the lacto and the yeasties.
I prefer doing my stillin' in the fall-spring zone. Cooler temps, no bugs, better ferments.

I have a 20 gallon flour ferment that has been sitting for a couple months due to temp stall.its been 55-60 degrees in the basement. I normally use bakers yeast but with the warm late winter I haven't had the stove in the basement going. So to try and start it back up I dumped a gallon+ of Michigan corn funk into it. So much for potstilled vodka.
Fingers crossed.

Looks like it might be coming alive.

[bitter]

Cool deal man!

B

[MichiganCornhusker]

Jed, I know you like making yer own bread on that bakin' board.
That funk will work as a starter for bread, but it doesn't bring a whole lot of funk to the flavor of the bread.
I'm experimenting with leaving the starter our for several days, feeding it a little flour each day, but also adding in some of the lacto skimmed from the top of my funk bucket.
Will keep you posted if I get something going that works well for a dough.

[firewater69]

I made a low gravity yeast mash on Sunday with a little 2 row and malted oats. I mashed it, then brought it to a boil and placed it in my shed to cool and see what I can catch. So I go out Monday after work and there is a small krausen on top, but it doesn't smell like the usual ferment. By Wednesday the grain has formed a cap, it looks like any other ferment but still smells different, not bad just different, hard to describe kind of earthy and grainy no bread smells at all. I'm thinking if this taste good I'll do a mash this Sunday and pitch it.

[firewater69]

well.... I pitched it, I smell a lacto in there with it, but I figured what the hell. it tastes good so we'll see what comes of it.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I think you got something there, Firewater, might be slow but that will only help the lacto.

Brewed up a batch of 100% raw rye yesterday. When I went out to get some US-05 for it, I didn't realize how late in the day it was and my LHBS was closed.
Got back to the shed and eyeballed a quart jar of funk bucket sourdough starter that I had been feeding all week for my next loaf of bread, and thought what the hell, and in it went.

Good strong fermentation going today, will see where this leads...
If this turns out ok, I'm gonna dump a whole bunch a corn malt mash in on top of the lees when I run the rye.

Thank you Jed for this particular bit of madness.

[firewater69]

this ferment is going nuts! it smells pretty funky too, I can't top cooter beer, but this is pretty interesting stuff. looks like it's gonna go pretty dry, I took this pic last night, the s.g. was 1.050

IMG_20160412_221556.jpg

[MDH]

My favorite way to do this is to go out into the middle of a vineyard, grab some fresh grapes, crush them in a ziplock bag and allow them to ferment spontaneously. Just as the fermentation is winding down, pitch the fermenting grapes into a mash. The surviving and active microbes will primarily be high-alcohol tolerant saccharomyces and some non-saccharomyces yeasts. They will ferment whisky to 6-8% easily.

[firewater69]

The ferment is going good, should be ready to strip on Sunday. I've never noticed so many changes in smells in one ferment before, I usually use dady or bakers and this funky stuff is not the norm. it does smell good though, If nothing else it will be a learning experience and I'll do better next time.

[jedneck]

I believe my one fermenter of Michigan corn funk infection is a failure on the infection. It is a 25 gallon allbran ferment that stalled due to temp. So I added 2 gallons of corn funk and it took back off. But there is no signs of infection and the wash smells and tastes like a regular ferment.

The flour ferment on the other hand is a funky lovely smelling barrel of yeasty funkgasm.

Both ferments been sitting for long time. Flour 4ish months and allbran 2 months maybe. Both in open fermenter with just a blanket over them.

[jedneck]

Here is the flour ferment. Straight pure funky. Both ferments are sitting at 1.1ish and falling slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwly.

[firewater69]

my experiment was a failure, it ended up smelling like a barnyard .

[Mashocist]

Searched and didn't find a record of anyone doing this but I have been thinking on it and here's my bright idea. Similar to the leave the grain overnight and see what happens, but start with a yogurt starter inoculation so the good bugs beat the bad bugs. My plan is to take my coarse ground cornmeal, cover it to double its height in water at about 90 degrees, and add a 1 liter starter of Fage yogurt/corn sugar that has been started 24 hours prior. Combine in bucket and loosely cover for 24-48 hours until desired sourness is reached, then gelatinize corn, drop to mash temperatures and combo 6-row and enzyme mash it, get down to temp and pitch whiskey yeast. Anyone see anything wrong with this? Has it been discussed in another thread and I have just run afoul of the HDGoogle button God from over use?

[engunear]

I love a good pun ...

I hear a very feint whispering

But seriously, I inadvertently did an interesting experiment. Since day-1, after Bryan Davis, I have made grain whiskey, added yoghurt, and strip as soon as the ferment slows. My stripper is big enough that she can empty an entire batch in two goes. Usually both get done same day, but sometimes its over two.

But was making a batch 20l with my dad (aged 94) and getting him working with malt; he usually uses dextrose and bottles of flavor ... arrgh. A 6l air-cooled still. This batch was 0.5 kg mashed peated barley and 2kg dried malt. Something a person whose strength is failing can make. But we forgot the yoghurt. Thinks: fear not, bacteria on grain .

Well we missed the first day for a strip (fermenting ending) due to life. Started stripping day 2, two runs. All good. Then had 8l over which got stripped day 3. Funk funk funk! Not pleasant. Don't have a description. I could smell it across the room. A bit went in the main pot, the rest down the sink. Stopped the secondary distillation early as funk started to come over.

This is the first time I have made a batch that fermented out, but where part went down the sink. Usually my wash is very acid at the end, not this time. There are a few variables in this experiment e.g. leaving 8 liters in a bucket without an airlock ... but the lesson for me is that controlled infection is a key part of this art.

[Mashocist]

Ya my controlled infection is on day 3 and smells like.... yogurt. Like really a lot like the yogurt that went in. The sourness is really building slowly but is a very pleasant, yogurty, sourness. I will let it go a couple days more than I originally intended, but I don't want to risk other bugs getting in their and nastying it up.

[engunear]

I have found that if I add too much yoghurt, or if the yeast is a bit slow to start, the lacto run away and you get a very sour mash and low yield.

My preferred proportion: for 5-6kg grain, make sure the yeast is active (start the culture and check it is vigorous before starting the mash) and use 1tbsp yoghurt. And if there is a lot of rye in the mash, do an 85C step, 30 mins to kill the bacteria on the rye, cool it quickly and then use same proportions.

[engunear]

This hobby can be so frustrating, trying to sort fact from fiction. Thats a polite way of saying "that engunear fellow can be full of shit".

The funk smell mentioned is there whether I add yoghurt or not. The funk became excessive when it was left too long before distilling.

So we have two recipes that both have been used multiple times. That almost constitutes science.
Recipe 1: 4kg Joe White malt, 1 kg peated barley. Mash blah blah, 1 tbsp yoghurt. Smells like bananas. Lovely.
Recipe 2: 2kg pale dried malt, 1 kg peated barley. Mash barley. Dissolve malt in water, add yeast. When mash finished, add to malt + water. Smells funky.

Both done with Still Spirits Whiskey yeast. Both ferment on grains.

The nearest thing I have to a hypothesis is that there is bacteria on the JW grain, and it dominates the bacteria on the peated malt, and the yoghurt makes no difference.