need help with Math for my 2nd attempt at Burbon.

[theskaz]

Welcome,

To start off, I am a home brewer and have a full HERMS setup. been brewing beers for years. been distilling for about a year. My brother-n-law and I are making a special 3gal batch of burbon for the celebration of both our kids birth. Mine is 4 months old, and his is 11 days old. I am versed in the ways of all grain, but need someone to help me fill in the blanks. here begins the math:

Goal: 3 gallons of useable stuff to put into a 3 gallon new american white oak barrel we have conditioning right now. plus some to put on the side. maybe a quart or so.

I have a 30 Gallon fermentor. its the largest one i have and special purchased it for this (and similar) runs.

My original idea was this:
50LBS cracked corn
18LBS 6 row
6LBS of malted rye.

I had done the math (early one morning) noting that it would get me about 1.115 OG with 30 gallons of wash.... i was wrong. I filled the fermentor up with grains and got all the way to the top. This was my first attempt at corn... and i didnt realize the full extent of the need for enzymes and when to introduce them. i tossed it all...

that was 3 days ago, and I now know how to get the corn to convert. but now my recipe and method needs a bit of help. when i brew beer i usually sparge, and rinse the grain, then boil to get my final volume of wort. i want to take a similar approach to this and end up where I need to. here is what I am proposing:

100 LBS corn
20 LBS 6 row
5 lbs malted rye

I have 3 keggles. so i think i can split this up into 5 batches (makes for easy math).

20 LBS corn
4 LBS 6-row
1 LBS rye

I read somewhere that I want 2 LBS of corn per 1 Gallon of water. So that means 10 gallons water + 25 LBS of grain = 12 gallons of space in my 15.5gallon keggle.

first cook corn...
Will the corn gelling up cause it to overflow?
how long do i need to hold the corn @ 170+F?

I then let it get down to 148 (ish) and throw in the 5 lbs of grain.
how long should i expect the conversion to take? (i have iodine to test)

here is the big question... do i sparge/rinse the grain with more water? how much total volume should i have off that run? if i do more math, i would need 6 gallons of wort/wash off of each run. so simply add water until it gets there? what temp does the sparge water need to be? same? higher?

[still_stirrin]

...first cook corn...
Will the corn gelling up cause it to overflow?
how long do i need to hold the corn @ 170+F?

The corn, I'm assuming you have ground, will turn to pudding. Stir it continuously as you've added the -HTL enzymes. The enzymes should help liquify the slurry. Typically you could expect a couple of hours hold. But at least 90 minutes.

I then let it get down to 148 (ish) and throw in the 5 lbs of grain.
how long should i expect the conversion to take? (i have iodine to test)

This step is reasonably quick, like 30-45 minutes. But at least as long as needed until you pass the iodine test.

...here is the big question... do i sparge/rinse the grain with more water? how much total volume should i have off that run? if i do more math, i would need 6 gallons of wort/wash off of each run. so simply add water until it gets there? what temp does the sparge water need to be? same? higher?

You don't need to mash out. So you could recirculate (if you can) for 15-30 minutes to get a good filter bed. Then start your runoff. You can sparge with water at 140-145*F, if you want. And as you runoff, run it through a HEX to cool it to pitching temperature, so you can aerate and pitch yeast right away.
ss

[Badmotivator]

Lotta questions here. I'll tackle a few.

It might be worth doing 1/6 of your total as a trial run. It'll give you some confidence in your protocol or it will reveal deficiencies. Either way, it's a win.

I think your total grain bill should be sufficient to fill your 3 gal barrel even with conservative cuts. In fact, I think you have enough grain that you don't have to sweat your protocol and get super-high yield to get to your goal. You've got some slack.

Corn does become porridge when cooked, but it doesn't gain a lot of volume. It doesn't overflow, it just gets thick.

You can go 2 lbs of TOTAL GRAIN per gallon if you like rather than 2 lbs of corn and then some malt and rye. If your SG is a little low, who cares? You're distilling it up to where you want it anyway.

If you have three keggles, you could split it into 2 batches of 3 (six boils), just to be on the safe side for volume, make stirring easier, etc.

Protocol: Grind or crack the corn smaller if you can. Cook that corn for an hour or two or three, as hot as you can without scorching. Then let it cool to 148(ish) and add your malt and rye. You got that part right. After the malt has cooked a little and had some time to convert starch (a few hours or overnight, who cares?) drain, strain, squeeze, shake or whatever to get the liquid off. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, removing the grain is the worst. (Check out the Fart-Husker method: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=30)

You could check the SG and add water if you need to, but that's really never going to happen, so never mind. Write down your SG and pitch your yeast after cooling and aerating.

Hope that helps.

[theskaz]

Thanks guys for the replies. haha that rhymed.

With the inital cook of the corn, is there an indicator that the hold is done, and i can let it cool to throw in enzyme/grain? or is 90 min just a good safe time?

here is the corn i am using: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produc ... _vc=-10005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and when i said i had 3 kegs, this is what i meant:

it is a typical HERMS setup for brewing beer. the middle keg has a false bottom, and the 2 on the outside have 5500w heating elements. it is 90% complete. this project might make me complete it...

and for the sake of pics, this was my last aging attempt:

[still_stirrin]

i use that same Producer's Pride cracked corn. But I run it through the roller mill a couple of times. I like a fine corn meal grind, not flour, but well broken up. It speeds the exposure to the water and enzymes making the gelatinization easier (and quicker). You'll know you're gelatinized because it becomes a "pudding". Again, I'd guess that to be 90-120 minutes from my experience. Keeping the slurry stirred during this process will help a lot too.
ss

[theskaz]

ok cool. i dont have a mill, but the homebrew store that i get my 6 row from does. ill see if they will let me use it.thanks for breaking this down barney style!

[rgreen2002]

Better think up a good reason to tell the brew folks why you want them to crack feed corn for ya.... makes folks suspicious. Secondly, corn can get a little oily and they may refuse. time for a corona mill...

[theskaz]

well they sell everything you need for distilling except for the still. and if i buy one more thing for my hobbies right now, pretty sure the wife will kill me.... lol. i gotta call them today, becuase i plan on starting the batches tomorrow morning.

[BayouShine]

If you need to fly under the radar, corn meal from the grocery is an option as well.

[still_stirrin]

...if i buy one more thing for my hobbies right now, pretty sure the wife will kill me...

I DON'T feel sorry for you with your 3 vessel eHERMS system. And you can't afford a mill for your grains?

I run my cracked corn through the rollers twice. That gets me a pretty good grind.

Shirley, you have a mill for grains don't you....with a brewing system like that? Get one.
ss

[nerdybrewer]

Corona is cheap on Amazon - attach a drill motor and go!

[theskaz]

lol, getting that system built put on a lot of strain. it was never about being able to afford it, more like "dont you have enough stuff already........" but yeah that mill is pretty cheap and ill get one next go around. I normally just get whatever grains i get, milled at the brewstore. but they did not allow me to mill the corn.

so from 6am yesterday to 11pm, i was cooking corn.

I broke it down into 5 batches. 20lbs of corn, 10gal water, 4lbs 6 row, 1lb rye.

final OG: 1.040. waaaay off. here is my process, please tell me what I did wrong.

boiled the water
transferred to mash tun and put in corn
initial resting temp was between 185 and 191.
but glass lid on.
stirred every 30-45 minutes
2 - 2.5 hours later, temp was 155-150
added barley and rye
mashed for 1 hour. stirring every 15-20 minutes
went through plate chiller into fermenter. i have 25 gallons of wort/wash 6 gallons of head space.

[BayouShine]

I broke it down into 5 batches. 20lbs of corn, 10gal water, 4lbs 6 row, 1lb rye.

final OG: 1.040. waaaay off. here is my process, please tell me what I did wrong.

boiled the water
transferred to mash tun and put in corn
initial resting temp was between 185 and 191.
but glass lid on.
stirred every 30-45 minutes
2 - 2.5 hours later, temp was 155-150
added barley and rye
mashed for 1 hour. stirring every 15-20 minutes
went through plate chiller into fermenter. i have 25 gallons of wort/wash 6 gallons of head space.

It could be a number of factors that gave you a lower than expected OG.

-You're light on your malt. Rule of thumb for working with corn is 30DP per pound of total grain. You're at 26.6. Adding more malt will help with conversion.

-You never said how long the corn was cooked at 180*+. This is critical with corn. You need to cook at high temps for a LONG period of time. I suspect that you didn't hold it high enough for long enough, making for low starch extraction.

-What was your mash temp after your malt addition? If you mashed too high, you may have denatured your already low enzyme load. Rule of thumb with bourbon style recipes is 145*-148* as mashing temps.

Those are 3 things off the top of my head that stick out. Next time, make those little adjustments and see if things work out better for you. Like the old saying goes though, corn is a bitch. Don't get frustrated.

[der wo]

Did you mill the corn?

You should add the rye at a higher temp.

150-155 is too hot.
If you use a lower temp next time, I wouldn't chill it after 1h, I would let it a half day cooling by itself.

With the term "premashing" you find information how to get a good conversion without using much malt.

[theskaz]

I broke it down into 5 batches. 20lbs of corn, 10gal water, 4lbs 6 row, 1lb rye.

final OG: 1.040. waaaay off. here is my process, please tell me what I did wrong.

boiled the water
transferred to mash tun and put in corn
initial resting temp was between 185 and 191.
but glass lid on.
stirred every 30-45 minutes
2 - 2.5 hours later, temp was 155-150
added barley and rye
mashed for 1 hour. stirring every 15-20 minutes
went through plate chiller into fermenter. i have 25 gallons of wort/wash 6 gallons of head space.

It could be a number of factors that gave you a lower than expected OG.

-You're light on your malt. Rule of thumb for working with corn is 30DP per pound of total grain. You're at 26.6. Adding more malt will help with conversion.

-You never said how long the corn was cooked at 180*+. This is critical with corn. You need to cook at high temps for a LONG period of time. I suspect that you didn't hold it high enough for long enough, making for low starch extraction.

-What was your mash temp after your malt addition? If you mashed too high, you may have denatured your already low enzyme load. Rule of thumb with bourbon style recipes is 145*-148* as mashing temps.

Those are 3 things off the top of my head that stick out. Next time, make those little adjustments and see if things work out better for you. Like the old saying goes though, corn is a bitch. Don't get frustrated.

The corn was over 180 for a short time. it was over 170 for about 1.5 hours. so that is probably my biggest issue.

i added my malts at 150 and they brought it down to around 145-148. i was careful for that.

i guess that I dont have a way to cook 50 lbs corn for that high, and that long. my first attempt was a 30Gal cooler and it lost temp too quick. it started at 180 and in 3 hours, it was 160. My HLT was leaking too much so i couldnt use my eherms system. but if i could, i could keep the temps up for much longer if the water was thin enough to be recirculated through a false bottom and 3/8 line. otherwise it will clog.

[BayouShine]

I quit using regular cracked corn a while back because of low yields like you're seeing. In my opinion, the added work and headache isn't worth the extra $.15/lb you save over a 25lb bag of cornmeal, which I also believe is a better quality corn. Switching over will also shorten the time you need to hold the corn above 180. This may be a better option for your particular situation. Going this route, you should see an immediate increase in your yields.

Your malt temps were good if you stayed between 145-148. Adding another pound of malt should put you in the right DP range as well.

The only downside is that it'll be next to impossible to sparge this off the grains. Most of us ferment on the grain and squeeze out after fermentation.

[nerdybrewer]

I used Bobs Red Mill corn meal and got a really good yield.
Of course my practice and protocol were different as I was using enzymes instead of malt.

[still_stirrin]

I lauter all my mashes, including bourbon mashes. When properly converted, the corn can be managed with a good grain bed. But you'll need to recirculate for a bit to get the good grain bed (filter) you'll need. Since you're running a recircuating system, there is no reason you couldn't too.

Same way for maintaining your mash temperatures...recirculate the mash liquor through the hot liquor tank, or if the mash water is too thick, recirculate hot liquor tank water through an immersed heat exchanger in your mash tun. But definitely keep the stirrer running to mix the mash throughout the process.

Also, using a little more barley malt in your recipe will help with the grain bed when recirculating. Or, you could even add rice hulls too. Part of the key to successful recirculation is a slow, steady recirc flow rate...you want the finest particles to collect on top with the coarser grain hulls towards the bottom.

Many here elect to separate grains from liquor after fermentation. I prefer to do it prior....my choice. In the end, it still makes a very nice whiskey...the reward is fitting of the effort.
ss

[theskaz]

I ran this recipe through the still yesterday and today. some of my adventures were documented here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=65914

I have about 2.5 gallons of 180 proof goodness to go into my 3 gallon barrel. i didnt get much into the heads or tails. Im wondering if pulling some hearts out to add a little tail, or just leave it all hearts and let it age... cuts is something im still stupid on. hard to get an idea of what it will taste like after it ages when you are doing cuts.

[Oldvine Zin]

Troll ????
maybe

ovz

[theskaz]

troll?

what do you mean?