HELP NEEDED SS ferrule to copper pipe

[Jason1979]

Hi all

I know there are 100’sof post about this but I’m in the uk and I need of some help on stainless steel ferrule to copper.

I’m building my own CCVM still but the part I’m struggling with is the ferrule fixing. I want to use copper as it’s traditional and for aesthetics but I’m unsure of all the solder, silver bearing and flux etc.

Any help would be amazing

Thanks

[StillerBoy]

Stainless steel soldering is relatively easy.. having said that, it is not if you done have the right flux and solder..

There are two very good flux on the market here in NA, one is Harris Stay Bright, and the other is Superior 71.. having worked with both, both are good, but I prefer Superior in part of easy cleaning, soap and water and its cleaned, and this needs to be done before cleaning the solder with a file, otherwise your file with get all gummed up.. as for the solder it needs to have some percentage of silver in its content..

Here is the most important part in soldering ss, it needs to be very clean, and one can use acetone or laquor thinner as a cleaning solvent.. clean both surface very well, then apply the flux, then using low heat from a propane trouch, slowly warm up the area to be soldered, as it warms up, start apply heat on either side of the area to be soldered, but not directly at the area being soldered..

Another point in soldering ferrules in, is to make two rings of solder, which will fit inside the pipe up against the ferrule,.. also if there is some looseness between the ferrule and the pipe, take some very fine copper wire and make either three or four tabs so as to take out the looseness..

Mars

[Expat]

Good walk through Stiller.

Everything you said above + (my experience) the secret to stainless joints is to tin the stainless part first, and only once this completed join it to the copper. By tinning, I mean getting a thin layer of solder on the connecting surface of the stainless piece. If you do this before the copper is in the way you can be sure you've got a solid connection to the stainless.

The 3" ferrules take me about 3 minutes each to tin, and the final connection to the copper is the work of less than 30 seconds.

[OtisT]

Just a reminder is this is for a fractioning column. Before you solder that ferrule to the column, be 100% sure that the ferrule face is 100% parallel with you column angle from all sides. I’m not sure if I described that correctly, but you what your column perfectly plummed (straight up and down) when fractioning. Hard to get that perfect. Much harder to fix it after the fact.

Otis

[Jason1979]

Hi Mars, Expat and Otis

Amazing info and thanks so much for your time on this. Im in the UK so Harris Stay Bright and Superior 71 flux are hard to find here in England so need an alternative. I'v seen then that has some silver in it and its called silver bearing solder but I'm not sure it's up to the job (link at the bottom)

Some excellent idea and with the tinning, do I do this with the same solder and flux? or do I need another type of solder? of does this need to be dipped in some melted solder?

Good point Otis about plummed and I was thinking to place the some fishing line from the roof of the garage and lining up the copper so the fishing lines goes tho the tube?

Also, Otis you say about 2 rings of solder is that for each end or 2 rings for one ferrule ?


https://www.screwfix.com/p/bernzomatic- ... lsrc=aw.ds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[StillerBoy]

Before you solder that ferrule to the column, be 100% sure that the ferrule face is 100% parallel with you column angle from all sides

Good point as stated by OtisT..

The ferrule face is always square, it is the cut end of the pipe that needs attention.. I use a carpenter's square to square off the end.. by moving the square around, one can see the high and low spots, and mark the necessary area that need shaving (filing) down..

The other point is that there is always some looseness between the pipe and ferrule.. that can be address using some fine copper wire tabs, and the two are pressed together, making a firm fitting.. also check for squareness before soldering..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

The Benzomatic solder is fine, as that the same one I use.. as for the paste, if it doesn't state that it is good on ss, then I would not try it..

about 2 rings of solder is that for each end or 2 rings for one ferrule

To properly solder in a ferrule requires lots of solder.. to do the job properly, 2 rings are require at each ferrule, made to fit tight along the inside of the pipe wall, and the ring are either push up as the ferrule is position, or push down once the ferrule is install, depending on how long your section pipe is..

Mars

[acfixer69]

I'll say http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow will get you the best info on this bi metal app. But I have in the past 1970 ish and beyond used acid from my truck battery to flux silver bearing solder copper to stainless fits in a pinch and it works was a trick I learned from my dad when I was young.

[Expat]

Some excellent idea and with the tinning, do I do this with the same solder and flux? or do I need another type of solder? of does this need to be dipped in some melted solder?

Same flux and solder for the whole project, nothing special, just has to be strong enough to etch the stainless and allow the solder to flow. Harry StayClean Liquid flux is what I use, essentially its a strong acid similar to what acfixer mentioned.

Not dipping in the flux, think more like painting the flux onto the surface. I stand my torch on the workbench and hold the ferrule sideways with a pair of plyers. Hold over the heat, brush with flux, after the surface etches paint the flux onto the surface. Holding the ferule sideways means that as you work around the circumference any extra solder will tend to stand on the surface as you work your way around, making it very efficient. If the flux burns i.e. turns the actual surface black you'll need to sand off the surface and restart that area. As you become more familiar with the temp required it happens much less.

Note, I use the ring of solder approach when I attach the copper to the stainless.

[Jason1979]

Thanks Expat

This is such a struggle here in the Uk as any Harris products like Stay Clean Liquid flux are import only on eBay and so very expensive. Im starting to think thats why I see more and more SS stills than copper here in England lol.

Iv ordered some lengths of 2" pipe and some smaller sizes plus some ss ferrules but I still need to research this UK equivalent to Harris solder and flux.

[Expat]

I hear you. The liquid flux isn't available here in Canada either. Had to make special arrangements to have it brought back from the US.

As always when working with any chemicals (but particularly strong acids), keep safety in mind and remember to wear both eye and skin protection. Also the vapors from this type of soldering are nasty, work outside where possible or in very well ventilated areas.

[bronctoad]

ok guys I have a terrible memory for where I've seen pertinent information, but I'm sure it was on HD.
once you have tinned your stainless steel with the silver bearing solder, to save money and make the connection easier,
you can use your regular lead free solder and paste I've only done once but it did work, and easily.
hope some prolific builders chime in with pros/cons right and wrongs. hope this jogs some memories

bronctoad

[Expat]

I guess you could, but I can't see it saving much and it would take longer to switch back and forth.

[corene1]

ok guys I have a terrible memory for where I've seen pertinent information, but I'm sure it was on HD.
once you have tinned your stainless steel with the silver bearing solder, to save money and make the connection easier,
you can use your regular lead free solder and paste I've only done once but it did work, and easily.
hope some prolific builders chime in with pros/cons right and wrongs. hope this jogs some memories

bronctoad

Really not much difference in the price of silver bearing solder and standard lead free solder with the amount that is being used. They both flow about the same temp , about 450 degrees for lead free and about 525 degrees for 6% silver bearing solder. Since both would liquefy at close to the same temperature I would use the silver bearing solder throughout the connection rather than diluting the silver bearing solder with lead free when they blend. Just for clarity, silver solder or silver braze is a different animal, typically around 45% silver and flow rate in the 1125 range and more difficult to work with due to the heat requirements as well as the need for high temp flux. Also much more expensive. Last I checked about $30 dollars an ounce.

[bronctoad]

didn't check current prices, Bur when I got my silver brit 100 it was something like 27 bucks but I had to buy staybrite8 silver bearing solder on line and that was 55 bucks plus shipping.
I might be just a little cheap sometime from the welding store a 1/2oz of staybrite8 with a bottle of flux was stupid money as a kit 23 bucks no thanks
that's why I tried it when I saw it mentioned.
Corene, do you think there is some dissimilar metal thingy going on if you mix the solders?
sorry if I'm out in left field

bronctoad

[corene1]

didn't check current prices, Bur when I got my silver brit 100 it was something like 27 bucks but I had to buy staybrite8 silver bearing solder on line and that was 55 bucks plus shipping.
I might be just a little cheap sometime from the welding store a 1/2oz of staybrite8 with a bottle of flux was stupid money as a kit 23 bucks no thanks
that's why I tried it when I saw it mentioned.
Corene, do you think there is some dissimilar metal thingy going on if you mix the solders?
sorry if I'm out in left field

bronctoad

Wow! those are high prices. My last pound of Staybrite 8 cost me $30 dollars and a quart of Stay clean cost $12 dollars.
I would think that using the 2 types of solder together would create a diluted solder lowering the total silver content of the mix. If it flowed well for you I am sure it will be strong enough as long as the pieces overlap and are not a butt fit. I did a test a while back and used staybrite 8 and Safety silv 45% on a butt joint. The staybrite joint broke when I clamped it and pulled on it hard at 90 degrees to the joint, still pretty strong though. The silver brazed joint bent the copper and did not break. I have never had a slip fit break from pulling on it though. A nice fit with solder wicked all the way through the joint is very durable. When I did a 2 inch copper column for a friend I found some ferrules that were extra long . Just over an inch long on the ferrule and 2 inch type M tube is 2.009 The actual OD. of the ferrule was 2.010 inch so I prepped the stainless and heated the copper tube to enlarge the bore and gently tapped the ferrule into the tube and let the copper shrink down on the ferrule. Super strong to start with then flowed the solder in. That was 4 years ago and it is still running strong.

[Jason1979]

Hi guys, hope your all well.

I've picked up this solder... any good?

[Jason1979]

Check out last nights progress

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73379

[StillerBoy]

I've picked up this solder... any good?

That is the same solder I use, and never had an issue with it.. as to the paste, is it water soluble, as it makes for easy cleaning if it is, otherwise, it much harder to clean..

A tip on soldering.. take a regular size strand of solder wire about 10 - 12 long, hammer it flat to about 1/4" wide, then cut it in half.. also do some cut into three strands.. by doing this it will allow you to solder use less heat and easier to control, less runs..

Mars..

[bronctoad]

didn't check current prices, Bur when I got my silver brit 100 it was something like 27 bucks but I had to buy staybrite8 silver bearing solder on line and that was 55 bucks plus shipping.
I might be just a little cheap sometime from the welding store a 1/2oz of staybrite8 with a bottle of flux was stupid money as a kit 23 bucks no thanks
that's why I tried it when I saw it mentioned.
Corene, do you think there is some dissimilar metal thingy going on if you mix the solders?
sorry if I'm out in left field

bronctoad

Wow! those are high prices. My last pound of Staybrite 8 cost me $30 dollars and a quart of Stay clean cost $12 dollars.
I would think that using the 2 types of solder together would create a diluted solder lowering the total silver content of the mix. If it flowed well for you I am sure it will be strong enough as long as the pieces overlap and are not a butt fit. I did a test a while back and used staybrite 8 and Safety silv 45% on a butt joint. The staybrite joint broke when I clamped it and pulled on it hard at 90 degrees to the joint, still pretty strong though. The silver brazed joint bent the copper and did not break. I have never had a slip fit break from pulling on it though. A nice fit with solder wicked all the way through the joint is very durable. When I did a 2 inch copper column for a friend I found some ferrules that were extra long . Just over an inch long on the ferrule and 2 inch type M tube is 2.009 The actual OD. of the ferrule was 2.010 inch so I prepped the stainless and heated the copper tube to enlarge the bore and gently tapped the ferrule into the tube and let the copper shrink down on the ferrule. Super strong to start with then flowed the solder in. That was 4 years ago and it is still running strong.

When I used the mix I was putting an tri-clamp flange on sae copper 1". The fit is off by several thousandths. Regular solder filled the gap easily and not having to deal with the stainless flux was a boon. Whoo! if I could get a pound of 8 for 30 bucks I'd have a couple extra on the shelf I don't do any butt joints with solder, I prefer to sil-braze or tig those if they becomes necessary.

bronctoad

[Tony1964]

Jason

Stainless steel flux, ebay, local UK company, search for TOPNIK TS-81 this is the flux I used, clean all of the stainless steel well before soldering, I used small grinding tools.

Cheers

Tony

[BlackStrap]

https://www.brewershardware.com/2-Tri-C ... OPPER.html

This is a link to a 2" tri clover fitting...While soldering copper to stainless isn't impossible, solder copper to copper is much easier.

[Expat]

https://www.brewershardware.com/2-Tri-C ... OPPER.html

This is a link to a 2" tri clover fitting...While soldering copper to stainless isn't impossible, solder copper to copper is much easier.

It's actually a long way from impossible, it's actually not that different or harder than copper, just different.

There are way more options in stainless and they cost a LOT less than the copper.

[StillerBoy]

It's actually a long way from impossible, it's actually not that different or harder than copper, just different.

I'm with Expat on this.. there's is no difficult in soldering ss to copper, just a different process..

Mars

[The Baker]

Then of course it is possible to get copper tri-clover fittings.
Even expanded ones to fit certain copper pipes.
So copper to copper soldering.

Geoff

[BlackStrap]

WOW Expat... So tell me expert is copper to copper easier than copper to stainless easier?
Is there more finesse to a newbie involved?

Allow me to hand this off to the experts...

[The Baker]

Just in case you thought I was an expert....no way.

Geoff

[BlackStrap]

Stiller boy...if given the choice...Would you like to solder copper to copper or copper to stainless?

[BlackStrap]

I'm not any where's near an expert...but two different metals welding or soldering is more than like to like... So much for helping a newbie. Let Expat take that on...I'm out.

[Expat]

Blackstrap perhaps you should dial it down a bit.

As was said, both metals are relatively easy to solder. Could you solder copper without the proper flux? Is stainless any different?

As mentioned, stainless fittings are far cheaper, easier to obtain and come in far more varieties. Not to mention stronger.