New guy to forums with a couple of questions.

[cayars]

Hello guys,
First of all I love the forums!
Been reading this and other forums for a little over a year but just finally signed up today so I could post.

I've got a small still setup in the basement mancave which has a separate stove and sink and I can leave it setup there. It's small still with only a 5 gallon stainless steel pot, 1 gallon thumper and one gallon sized worm. It has some copper in it but not a lot. The small worm is all copper. It's not this one but similar: https://www.amazon.com/Vanell-Moonshine ... den&sr=1-7

I've got some copper grounding wire I've bent into coils that I'lve thrown into the boiler and small thumper for added copper contact time. Not sure how much it helps but can't hurt.

The "thumper" I have next to the main boiler (not on top) as in this picture. I run an aquarium pump for re circulation of the small worm with a separate 10 gallon water reverse which generally keeps it cool enough. I can change out the water if needed as I've got a basement sink next to the stove. I usually float a frozen 3 liter soda bottle filled with ice in the reserve. The "thumper" honestly seems more like a joke then doing much overall.

I'll be going bigger in time but for now it's fine while I'm "playing" and continue to learn and produce better product. I'm considering a "test rig". I realize bigger can make it easier for cuts and other things and temps change much more slowly. For about the last 9 months I've done nothing but different sugar washes and some cracked corn (Tractor Supply) thrown in for a bit of additional flavor (not sure how much flavor it ads). I'm still learning to do cuts after airing the bottles but getting the hang of it. I typically end up with 50% to 55% of finished product with the rest being faints.

Distilled sugar washes no matter how many times through the still, really don't taste good to me at all. I've even resorted to drip through carbon filtering. Still tastes like crap. Blah... I typically "flavor" the product either making Limoncello, Apple Pie or mixing it 50% with Wild Turkey 101 or similar in coke. It's just not "good" by itself, but hey it's from a sugar wash.

I've read and watched a lot of videos on different all grain recipes which is my next venture and leading up to a few questions.

I've got the basic equipment besides the still of a hydrometer, Proof and Tralle Hydrometer, ph meter & digital thermometer. In general I do things safely and always stay near the still when running.

I've played around with nuclear aging, aging on toasted woods (various oven temps)
plus torched to #3 or #4 wood sticks. But it's still a sugar wash and never tastes good no matter how long on wood. Slightly better but never good.

Now that I have my basic little setup described I'm about to venture into all grains.

I'm going to order some Enzymes (SEBstar HTL/SEBamyl GL) from https://enzymash.biz to help make the process easier and/or to avoid malted grains (ie 100% corn).

I'll play with 100% corn using the Tractor Supply cracked corn which is cheap. Same or lower cost overall then a sugar wash so it's a no brainier.

I'm looking to get a more complex flavor and get away from the sugar "bite" so was thinking of playing with different grains but for starters was thinking of 50%-60% corn, 10%-20% rye, 15% wheat, 15% malted barley. That may not be enough "malt" but with the enzymes conversion should be fine (iodine check).

The closest brew store to me is about an hour away (not that bad) but their prices on grains are high IMHO. I've got a Tractor Supply store within 2 miles and 50lbs of cracked corn is only $10 so that's cheap (cheaper than sugar). The rye, wheat and malted barley is so much higher at the bre store!

I've read several threads on people using wheat flour (whole or enriched) but I worry about this due to scorching in my still. I've never tried a "flour" before so I don't know how much sludge I'd get. I could "apple jack" it by filling 3 liter soda bottles with ferment, freezing then flipping the bottle over to drain/capture the "good juice" and allowing a lot of the sentiment to remain frozen in the bottle. That would clean it up probably 50%. I can easily do 18 liters or so a day this way which is fine for my size still if it would help.

I'm obviously trying to keep the overall cost down per batch.

So now to a few questions:
1) any good online sources for Rye, Wheat and Malted Barley that won't break the bank?

2) any good substitutes for any of the above without resorting to "flour" (ie wheat flour)?

3) I haven't seen this anywhere in the forums but has anyone done separate ferments of corn, rye, wheat, barley then mixed them after the fact before going into the boiler? I know you can distill them separately then mix them back, aka Canadian whiskey.

I ask this because maybe I could make a 10 gallon wheat flour ferment and "apple jack" to help clarify it then mix it back with the "corn" assuming I can't find a good price on wheat.

You can kind of see where I'm going. Any other words of encouragement beside these basic questions?

[fizzix]

1) If there's a better source for grain, I haven't found it --especially a shipment order. The transport charges can equal or exceed the grain cost.
My local brew shop is charging $1.99 US/pound for all malts, and that's the best I've seen around me.

2) Have you tried just racking/siphoning off your finished ferment liquid, leaving the sludge & grain in the bucket? Then you can squeeze that grain & flour sludge in a mop bucket and brew bag, still reclaiming all the liquid.

3) I imagine you could. Why not get a larger fermenter and do it all at once?

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(Here's what I squeeze the grain & sludge with)

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And you're right, a thumper should be 1/3 to 1/2 your boiler size.
Check and make sure your still doesn't have any rubber or silicone parts. Some of those models do, and it's not safe.
And jacking... I've tried that approach and must've done something wrong. I found it unreliable and wasteful.
One more thing: Would you go to the Welcome Center and formally introduce yourself. Tell a little about yourself, please? It's one of the rules for new members.

Stick with us here at Home Distiller. We'll help you out of any problems, and make a great distiller out of you! If you're willing.
Good luck, my friend!

[cayars]

Fizzix, thanks for the reply!

I haven't tried anything yet with AG.

My local brew shop(s) is $2.50 to $2.65 per pound (if in stock) at the least for anything if they even have it in stock. So if doing 60% corn ($10 per 50 lbs) and 40% other grains this can add up rather quickly!

I didn't mention previously but I've got several 5 gallon buckets, 5 gallon carboys and also a couple of 44 gallon brute "barrel" trashcans I use for fermenting.

I have seen/read the mop strainer technique in the forums and certainly not opposed to it. I don't mind putting in time vs costs. I work from my house so I can spare the time to do some things that others can't do. This is easy when you are only feeding a 5 gallon still but starts to get harder and more tedious the bigger still you have. But while still small scale I don't mind this at all. I consider my 5 gallon still a "test"/proof run still until I get to a size that meets my needs.

Ironically I just found from looking at an "Ohio" website that the malted barley they sell is made/milled 4.5 miles from my house. Sent the local company an email as well as left a voice mail so hopefully that might pan out for cheaper malted barley (rye and wheat)! If it's worth it I'll buy in bulk. I can store it or always sell excess here or on ebay if it's worth it for others as well!

But regardless, I'm sure there are many other people who want to do all grain but can't find a decent price on the other grains besides corn. So the basic question(s) I ask are still relevant.

I'm still interested in thing that can be purchased at a local market that can be substituted for Rye, Wheat, Barley assuming someone doesn't have access to raw grains. to make a superior product then a sugar wash.

Carlo

[still_stirrin]

cayars,

Fizzix gave you great advice there. You’ve got to “weigh your options” how to get to the spirits you want.

But I’d think that small stainless steel (ebay china cheapo) is only capable of so much (quality) and your efforts have validated my hunch. Going bigger will give you a wider range with which to make successful cuts. As it is, you just about need shot glasses for your collection jars.

Sugar washes can work fine and deliver a good tasting spirit. But don’t try to do it by pushing the gravity (%ABV potential) too high. The yeast simply don’t do well when stressed. And with a smaller ferment, those qualities are exaggerated. Keep your OG around 1.075 and you’ll be OK. Plus, my favorite sugar wash is Rad’s All Bran from the T&T forum. Check it out.

And don’t try collect by proof, even in that cute little stainless still. You’ve got to collect in jars and then, after airing out, make cuts based upon your senses. Read Kiwistiller’s Guide to Cuts for the “how to”.

Finally, if you’re going to attempt an all grain, don’t start with all corn. You’ll struggle with the porridge and wonder why. Start with an all grain using brewstore malted barley. I suggest using a base malt or lager malt 100%. You’ll get predictable results without the sticky mess of corn, let alone rye. DO NOT try rye until you have your mash processes mastered. It’s a nightmare. And a 100% lager malt will give you a fantastic springboard for your own brown liquor.

Get some heartwood chunks and toast and lightly char them. Put your liquor into a couple of 2 liter mason jars with a couple of chunks and set it aside for a few months. Shake them and open them a few times during the process and you’ll learn the way they color and mature through time. Patience is the HARDEST thing to put in a bottle.
ss

[cayars]

Thanks for the feedback still_stirrin.

I'm under no surprise that my little still produces "shit" results. I would certainly hope a bigger/better still will produce a better outcome (taste wise)!

I've concentrated on 8% abv for my ferment and have not pushed it past that. So fermenting percent of a sugar wash is not the answer. I've intentionally kept it low to not affect taste.

I never mentioned yeast I've used by it's bread yeast by fleischmann's in 4oz jars.
I've kept my starting gravity at 1.060 or so (point here or there) for the starting ferment SG.

I'll typically do a 1st run and disregard at least the first 25% and last 25% leaving about 50% collected on the first pass.
On 2nd pass I'll typically keep about 60% with maybe 20% heads, 20% tails, but that's just a guess.

But between a first and second pass through the still I'm trowing out a lot (well to faints jug).

On the all grain, why not start with all corn? With the enzymes this should be simple shouldn't it? Seems like it should be much simpler then adding different temperature points for Rye, Wheat and barley????

Carlo

[still_stirrin]

...On the all grain, why not start with all corn? With the enzymes this should be simple shouldn't it? Seems like it should be much simpler then adding different temperature points for Rye, Wheat and barley????

If you have to ask...you haven’t read enough. Corn gelatinization temperature is 190*F. And the saccarification temperatures for all of these cereal grains is 145-150*F. Plus, water content affects the enzyme activity as well.

All corn will make a thick pooridge, like a thick oatmeal. Enzymes help thin that, but it’s still a mess to work with...definitely not for beginners. Wheat has glucans and rye is LOADED with them. Glucans are glue! Oh so sticky and tough to manage.

So, again I suggest learning your mashing processes with malted barley.
ss

[Setsumi]

...On the all grain, why not start with all corn? With the enzymes this should be simple shouldn't it? Seems like it should be much simpler then adding different temperature points for Rye, Wheat and barley????

If you have to ask...you haven’t read enough. Corn gelatinization temperature is 190*F. And the saccarification temperatures for all of these cereal grains is 145-150*F. Plus, water content affects the enzyme activity as well.

All corn will make a thick pooridge, like a thick oatmeal. Enzymes help thin that, but it’s still a mess to work with...definitely not for beginners. Wheat has glucans and rye is LOADED with them. Glucans are glue! Oh so sticky and tough to manage.

So, again I suggest learning your mashing processes with malted barley.
ss

I agree with SS, BUT when you try AG with enzymes do have a look at booners cassual all corn in tried and true. all I do different is to start early with the first enzyme to keep the mash thin. BUT do also a search for ga flatwoods on best press is no press, you do need a way to get your alcohol out of the corn and not everyone can steamstrip.

last, I have access to fine maize meal and cracked to course meal. with the fine meal my conversion with booners method is much better than course meal or cracked. fine meal hydrade and gelatinize faster.

do give it a try, good luck.

[cayars]

cayars,

Finally, if you’re going to attempt an all grain, don’t start with all corn. You’ll struggle with the porridge and wonder why. Start with an all grain using brewstore malted barley. I suggest using a base malt or lager malt 100%. You’ll get predictable results without the sticky mess of corn, let alone rye. DO NOT try rye until you have your mash processes mastered. It’s a nightmare. And a 100% lager malt will give you a fantastic springboard for your own brown liquor.

...On the all grain, why not start with all corn? With the enzymes this should be simple shouldn't it? Seems like it should be much simpler then adding different temperature points for Rye, Wheat and barley????

If you have to ask...you haven’t read enough. Corn gelatinization temperature is 190*F. And the saccarification temperatures for all of these cereal grains is 145-150*F. Plus, water content affects the enzyme activity as well.

All corn will make a thick pooridge, like a thick oatmeal. Enzymes help thin that, but it’s still a mess to work with...definitely not for beginners. Wheat has glucans and rye is LOADED with them. Glucans are glue! Oh so sticky and tough to manage.

So, again I suggest learning your mashing processes with malted barley.
ss

Hmm, Not sure I understand why you think the corn only would be hard. That's the purpose of using the high temp enzymes isn't it? That way you can more easily work with it at hotter temps before it cools down to where you would normally add malted barley. This certainly didn't seem very hard to do using a drill and paint stir attachment which is how I'd do it.

Were you suggesting malted barley as 100% of the grain? If so that would be prohibitively expensive at $2.65/pound (local brew store). 4 pounds of malted barley would cost the same as 50 pounds of cracked corn.

Am I missing something?

PS thanks for the tip on the rye. I'll hold off on that.

[corene1]

Just wanted to share that the best prices I have found for malted grains is at morebeer. If you order over $60 dollars it is shipped for free, but you need to order it in 1,5 or 10 pound bags. Free shipping does not apply to the 50 pound bags. You can order it ground or unground depending on if you have a grain grinder. I just checked and they have a pilsner malt for $1.09 a pound and a white wheat malt for $1.49. For feedstore grains I like to use steam rolled corn as it seems to cook out easier than cracked corn. For the other grains I pay a bit more but getting re cleaned barley or wheat gives me a better product. Local feedstores usually have them in stock. Look into what they carry, many carry steam rolled grains .

[Twisted Brick]

I have had good luck with feedstore corn (cracked and whole) although an attempt at malting whole corn was a fail. The feedstore red wheat malts, ferments and ages really nicely.

This might be a viable resource for raw grains, as they have a great selection: corn, cornmeal, oats, wheat, millet, spelt, kamut, and rye. Most 50lb bags are right at $30, and delivery is free for orders over $50. Less than $50 and shipping is a flat $5. Orders are periodically trucked to a drop location (parking lot) which means a drive to go pick up. Mine is a 15min drive and the truck driver has unloaded and labelled the orders and customers simply find their order and go.