Apple Brandy Barrel

[Windswept]

I have a ton of apple brandy in the works, and I'm looking at some used 5g barrels, just wondering if anyone has some advice on them. My available options are bourbon, rum, gin and American whiskey, all recently dumped from kentucky. Would there be a preference from amongst these?

TIA

[cayars]

Personal Opinion but I'd say to rule out the gin barrel right off the bat. That is not going to add a complimentary flavor at all!
My gut says the rum barrel would likely come in 3rd place as far as choices go but much better choice than the gin barrel.

The Bourbon and American Whiskey would likely be a tie more or less for taste BUT one thing that is known is that the Bourbon barrel has ONLY been used one time prior. American Whiskey likely would have already been a used barrel when the whiskey was added.

If you can find out what spirit was actually in the bourbon and American whiskey barrel that would be a nice thing to know. For example you might not want a high rye whiskey labeled as American Whiskey vs using a new barrel and labeled Rye whiskey as the spiciness associated with rye might not be wanted in your brandy.

The other question is what do you want to achieve with the barrel? If you are looking for a "finish" then Bourbon most likely is a better choice. If looking for less of a "finish" but just something to age your brandy in then American Oak might be better (assuming you can find out what was in it).

If you can find out what was in those barrels you'll have a decent idea what type of flavor will be added to your Brandy.

Not sure that helped or not,
Carlo

Hopefully, those with more experience aging brandy can chime in with better opinions!

[Bushman]

I would also go with the bourbon and whiskey barrels but another thing to consider is how long and how many times the barrels have been used. If the bourbon and whiskey barrels have aged their product twice as long then I would pick the other barrels.

[cayars]

We know for it to be Bourbon it has to be new and charred barrel else it couldn't be bourbon. For the American Whiskey it is likely a used barrel. I say this because most likely if the same spirit was put in a new charred barrel it would be considered Bourbon, Rye or Wheat whiskey assuming the grain bill was 51%+ of any of those grains.

Either way the barrel has absorbed some of the whiskey that will leach back out into the brandy so knowing what is going to leach into it will be nice to know.

[Windswept]

Thanks for the input, my understanding is that the bourbon barrels are once filled, then filled with whiskey or rum.

Bourbon mash bill is 60% corn, 20% rye and 20% barley. Aged 5-6 months.

The whiskey is 60/30/10 and no info on the aging.

I think I’m leaning towards the bourbon more.

[SaltyStaves]

I'd rather put a delicate brandy in spent barrel, than one that will dominate it and make instant Apple-flavoured varnish.

[cayars]

If they have been refilled with another spirit after the bourbon was in them, then they are no longer bourbon barrels. So if they are being sold as bourbon barrels that ARE ONCE used ONLY and have not had anything in them but a bourbon spirit. Once anything else goes inside the barrel it is no longer a Bourbon barrel. <-- that's how it's supposed to be anyway.

There is not much difference in the rye content between 20% on a new barrel and 30% in a used barrel and the barley doesn't matter so much. More life in the Bourbon barrel for flavoring but the American Whiskey barrel might be better for pure aging without adding barrel notes other than the spirit that was in it (as it's been used more).

If it were me and the price is the same I'd get the bourbon barrel. BUT CLARIFY that the bourbon barrels were use ONLY ONE TIME previously otherwise give them an earful on not calling them bourbon barrels.

Is the source of the 5 gallon barrels local to you or an internet company? I ask because I don't want you to post info if the supply is limited and somebody else could swoop in and get the barrels before you but if they are from an internet brokerage company or similar and supply isn't limited then maybe post a link to the supply for these. Other people who then have experience with that vendor/supplier can contribute with direct knowledge.

And/or just post a price for the 5 gallon barrels and others can give you ideas if they know a better deal.

Any way you cut it, it's a "used barrel" so you will get less tannin and vanilla flavor from the barrel when you re-use it. The particular spirit that was in it will contribute more to your brandy than anything else as it will leach out of the wood.

[Windswept]

Don’t mind posting at all, they’re from county cooperage near Ottawa and he’s charging 150$ a barrel for them. It’s the cheapest I’ve found that’s somewhat local. The barrels come from hartfield and co, I got all the info from their website.

I’m not a hundred percent sure what I want to do with the barrel, but it’s more to age it than to get the whiskey/tannin/vanillin flavours from the wood.

[Expat]

Don’t mind posting at all, they’re from county cooperage near Ottawa and he’s charging 150$ a barrel for them. It’s the cheapest I’ve found that’s somewhat local. The barrels come from hartfield and co, I got all the info from their website.

I’m not a hundred percent sure what I want to do with the barrel, but it’s more to age it than to get the whiskey/tannin/vanillin flavours from the wood.

I have a couple barrels from him, nice guy and one of the few proper coopers left. Bought a rye and a bourbon. The bourbon barrel has an amazing aroma to it, it would be my choice for sure.

You had me excited there for a minute thinking he might have gotten in some apple brandy barrels; of course the thread cleared that up

Btw, my understanding from discussion with others who have bought from him suggested they were actually Barrel Mill. Obviously things might have changed since I bought earlier in the year. Have to grab a couple more next year perhaps

[cayars]

I don't know how important it is to have used barrels but you can get new barrels for about the same price.
I've never dealt with them but BarrelsOnline.com has 5 gallon for $125 with free engraving
http://www.barrelsonline.com/showproduc ... eSupport=1

Amazon has some new barrels as well with free amazon prime deliver (not sure how that applies to Canada)

or

[Windswept]

Not cheaper in Canadian pesos, but probably would be with a shipping. I also like supporting local (ish) suppliers.

[cayars]

+1 on that. You also know what you're getting upfront and local is good.

[Expat]

+1 on that. You also know what you're getting upfront and local is good.

Particularly when that local is an actual Cooper and not a store

[cranky]

I don't know how important it is to have used barrels but you can get new barrels for about the same price.
I've never dealt with them but BarrelsOnline.com has 5 gallon for $125 with free engraving
http://www.barrelsonline.com/showproduc ... eSupport=1

Amazon has some new barrels as well with free amazon prime deliver (not sure how that applies to Canada)

or

The problem with those is they don't tell you they come varnished. My wife bought me a couple from them a few years ago and they smelled heavily of chemicals/varnish inside. I sent them back.

My opinion is if you are going use it for apple brandy get the used whiskey barrel, preferably used twice, that way you can better control what flavors come into your hard earned brandy. You can always add sticks to increase wood.

[cayars]

Good point on the varnish Cranky. Only the first link gives the choice of that. But with local cooper purchase that's a non issue now.

'I have a question for those who do brandies and use used barrels.

With something "delicate" like a light brandy flavor, is there any advice for barrel prep? By this I mean to downplay the spirit (Bourbon) that was previously in the barrel? Anyone ever did a 1/2 gallon fill, rotate for a week or two to try and get the sacrificial spirit to absorb most of the "leach" first them dump this and refill? Dump of course can be used to back blend. Or just fill with water a couple times then dump this?

I ask, because I heard a distiller talking about finishing Bourbons in port and sherry barrels and they expect to get 6 to 7 liters of the wine back out of the barrel into the Bourbon by sweating it in higher temps (120F ish) for a couple months. That was for a 53 g/200l barrel.

[cranky]

My barrel was twice used and I prepped it by aging hard cider in it for several months. I think it worked out well but I have actually struggled getting oak flavor into the brandy but That can be solved with sticks and time.

[pope]

Carlo I just today bought a Gibbs 5-gal for 220 shipped, to me the assurance of reputation is worth the large difference in price but the most costly thing is my time spent a/b testing a cheaper barrel and I can’t rationalize doing that for now.

For the op, the caveat to my opinion is I don’t do a lot of brandy but if I were choosing it’d be the oldest barrel for the mellowest effect, probably #1 American whiskey and #2 rum. If it was a light rum maybe the rum first. You’ll have to age longer but you’ll get more maturity relative to your oak flavor additions which imo would be what I’d be after for a brandy.

[cayars]

That sounds reasonable pope. You know what you are getting vs some generic barrel where you know nothing about it.

Cranky, is it safe to say your use of the barrel is for aging and not flavoring correct? The used barrel allows the spirit to "breath" properly and you control any "flavoring/oaking" via staves added? That sounds rather ideal.

[cranky]

Cranky, is it safe to say your use of the barrel is for aging and not flavoring correct? The used barrel allows the spirit to "breath" properly and you control any "flavoring/oaking" via staves added? That sounds rather ideal.

Yes, exactly. I personally prefer to be as in control as possible with my brandy.

[Windswept]

Thanks for the input, I decided to go with the whiskey barrel! Any tips or threads that are recommended for the aging process?

[Windswept]

Barrel arrived today, filled it with hot water and it holds 6 us gallons, pretty impressed with the quality (it is a barrel mill like someone mentioned above). It’s twice filled. Took under 5 days to arrive, which I’m impressed with.

I’m thinking I’m not going to end up with enough brandy to completely fill it, at I better to proof down to 40% to try and get it more full, or keep it almost full at 55-60%?

[nerdybrewer]

Higher proof the better when it goes in.
You don't want to make tea.

[The Baker]

Roll it around a bit.

Geoff

[nerdybrewer]

Roll it around a bit.

Geoff

I agree.
You could put it in at it's present proof and add marbles or whatever to fill it.
You could also just put it in and then roll the barrel around from time to time.

[Odin]

On apple brandy it should be full! Always. Apple brandy's flavor is at the beginning. Big heads cut needed. But those flavors are extremely prone to oxidation, which is why apple brandy barrels are always full. Angel share losses? Fill up again. You take some out for consumption? Fill the barrel up again. Its the only way to prevent over-oxidation and loss of (very volatile) apple / fruit flavors.

Odin.

[cayars]

Sounds like a simple solera system in in order for Apple Brandy. Even if you first "barrels" are nothing more than standby glass jars filled and ready to fill the void in the barrel.

Do you find this to be the case for pear and other types of "rose family" fruits? How about stone fruits or grapes?

[Odin]

Fruit brandy in general, apple brandy specifically. Both run a risk of easily over-oxidation, but apple brandy (if it is cut as it should be) most of all.

Odin.