PID CONTROLLER ITC-106 AND AUTO TUNE

[txcheddar]

Made my first sacrifice run yesterday. Using 26 Gallon with 4 inch glass coumn 4 plates and a pid controller ITC106. My temps were surging both ways and could not maintain the plates reflux. Was suggested to use Auto Tune which will fine tune but I am not sure how to use that function. Anyone know? I figured out manual control but it was too late in the game to use it. My pot was too hot (200) at that point. Found it very hard to find detailed information on the glass column and my specific model pid control. If anyone has insight or experience please let me know.

Thanks

[acfixer69]

Ditch The PID controller build or buy a power controller. Do a goggle search and learn for yourself why you are having a bad time.

[txcheddar]

You assume too much acfixer69. Global Moderator swoops in and squashes a Novice post in five minutes.

[acfixer69]

These discussions have gone on too long. I assumed nothing.

[Setsumi]

may i suggest a test? put your PID on an electric kettle, get the kettle to full boil. then reduce the intensity of the boil. if you can do that it will work for your still. if you cannot control the intensity of the boil, you will not be able to control the vapour speed in your column or your plate liqiud depth.

try the same with a SCR, you will be able to control the intensity of the boil easy.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Using temps and pid are the wrong ways to make liquor. Get rid of the thermometers and run only in manual. PIDs are for beer, not stills.

[txcheddar]

I see so far it an argument against PID's. What's the point of posting a question specific to my concern only to have to debate PID or POWER CONTROLLERS. Appreciate the point of view but I am one day into this and at present I have a PID. Not interested in debate at this point just help with my concern. Know that I can use "manual" function which is just as good as a Power Controller if it comes to that.

thanks

[LWTCS]

Hi txchedder,

You said : "If anyone has insight or experience please let me know."

But now you are rejecting the answers?

There is no argument at all here. Similarly, there is no debate.

The issue with the PID is that it does not provide constant input once your target temperature is achieved. Any disruption to heat input will collapse any vapor in suspension. And therefore disrupt your gradient. Think smearing.
No input= no pressure. No pressure= no distillate The thing that further compounds this bad behavior is that as you draw alcohol out of the system the boiling point of the remaining constituents will change. And so by choosing a target temperature you'll never get all of the alcohol out of your kettle unless you just run "full blast". And you don't need a controller to simply run full blast.

You will never make your best spirit using a PID to control your heat input.

I'm sure someone else can say it better.

*click click this is a recording.....

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi Tx, The point is that a PID causes the behavior you described and chasing temp is not how a still works. You need constant power to run a still and it will stabilize at the boiling temp of the liquid in the boiler thus producing vapor. If your PID can provide constant power in manual mode then go with that and let us know if it works better.

This describes the concept pretty well:
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html

Cheers!
-jonny

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Hi Tx, The point is that a PID causes the behavior you described...

Yes, thank you Johnny. This is what is meant to be said.

Cheddar, you are not doing anything wrong. The PID is running they way it was designed. The problem IS the pid, for this very reason. It's not meant to be a battle between power and pid. You asked what the issue is and how to fix. The issue is a pid can't be used, and there isn't anything you can do to make it work right.

Sorry bud.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

Using temps and pid are the wrong ways to make liquor. Get rid of the thermometers and run only in manual. PIDs are for beer, not stills.

+1 if you don't want to ditch the PID and invest in a power controller as it will pretty much function the same as power controller.

[seabass]

It has manual control. There's your answer.

[txcheddar]

Thanks for the education. I will learn how to distill in manual mode. Not hard to start over when you just started. At least I will have learned both methods.

[jonnys_spirit]

When your PID is in manual mode is it controlling the total % of power via SSR or SCR?

Cheers,
jonny

[seabass]

PID for heat up with all grain. Set it a couple of degrees under boiling point for your wash abv. Then slowly ramp up power in manual mode watching for foam.

You want manual mode because what you want/need is a steady boil. You can't do that with a PID. It will bounce around because it will be controlling by temperature in a situation where power input does not change temperature.

[txcheddar]

Hi Tx, The point is that a PID causes the behavior you described and chasing temp is not how a still works. You need constant power to run a still and it will stabilize at the boiling temp of the liquid in the boiler thus producing vapor. If your PID can provide constant power in manual mode then go with that and let us know if it works better.

This describes the concept pretty well:
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html

Cheers!
-jonny

Very interesting read. Now that's what I am talking about sharing information! Just not going to find stuff like that without asking questions and making mistakes no matter how much GOOGLEing one does! Thank you sir

[Saltbush Bill]

Just had a look at your Welcome post.

I have watched just about every George Duncan Barley and Hops Brewing video on YOUTUBE that he has posted on the subject of Distilling.

Right there is where all of your troubles started. People around here are getting tired of fixing the problems Newbs are having because they listen to this blokes rubbish.
Now you have a head full of things you need to unlearn and a shit load of reading to do to learn the right ways of running a still.

I have already read a lot on this site and I am ready to apply what I have picked up.

If you had read as much as you claim on this site you would already have seen just how many Newbs turn up with this very same problem, you would have also known not to go down the PID path and try to run a still by temps.
Mind if I ask a question or two?
Why are you not asking George why you cant get this to work......he seems to be the expert on using them.......no one around here will use them to run a still for one good reason........because its a ridiculous way to try to run a still.
Who sold you this PID?

My pot was too hot (200) at that point.

Can you tell me why that is too hot.......and what temp you think it should be ....... or who told you that was to hot ?

Edit I see you have now been give a link to something written by someone who DOES know about distilling......buy his book ...read it.......you will learn much.

[txcheddar]

Saltbush BIll

What videos have you released on the subject and if you have how many have watched. I think its my misunderstanding I am using a PID on my equipment not anyone else. For a SITE MODERATOR you sure know how to resolve issues, be positive and lead someone new down the road. Hell I can post what you did and I don't know anything. It does not take an expert to be an a$$ and give no real information.

IF you read the entire post you would have seen I got the point and I am moving on. Why you want to continue bashing. Probably why people watch and listen to people they can understand and want to hear talk.

Now I have to make lemonade with my lemon.

[still_stirrin]

....Found it very hard to find detailed information on the glass column and my specific model pid control. If anyone has insight or experience please let me know.

Hey tex,
Didn’t you come here asking for help? Don’t deny the insight when you get a reply, or next time you’ll get “the cold shoulder”.

Keep in mind that there is a world of knowledge and experience on this website. Do you SERIOUSLY think you’re the first new distiller to ask the questions you have?

And just because you’ve seen a Youtube video where some promoter says you can use his tools doesn’t mean he is the “authority”.

Now, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. But you don’t have the authority to chastise respondents who reply to your request. If you don’t like their offering, fine. But you should not flame the response....you asked for it.
ss

[txcheddar]

Yeah, I am done with this. My mistake for posting in HD. I won't be back to read anymore replies.

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi Tx, I'll just add to this dialogue that you have described a 26 gallon still and I'd like to point out when filled with high ABV spirits which are then boiled and creating large amounts of purified ethanol vapor is basically a large explosive fire-bomb with huge potential for disaster and explosion.

Distilling is not beer or wine making.

Please do yourself a big service and read read read read until your eyes bleed then read read read some more. Don't complain and never leave your still unattended - ever. Safety first. Always Safety. Research everything so you know exactly how that (presumably high voltage 220V heating element if not two elements) works along with the controller it's connected to and how it fails when it does. If you're powering your 26 gallon boiler full of ethanol with gas/flame there are additional precautions and safety measures that you should research and be aware of even if you;re not using gas. Worst case scenario is something you need to know all about.

Do you have adequate and appropriate fire extinguishing materials to put out a fire involving 26 gallons of boiling ethanol? George ever go on and on about safety?

Just some food for thought and above all else please be careful.

Cheers,
jonny

[Acrylic]

Yeah, I am done with this. My mistake for posting in HD. I won't be back to read anymore replies.

Hmmmm kinda knee jerk reaction - from one newbie to another I recommend hang in here (hell I'm 57 and yes I'm new) and nvr mind all that cursed george stuff holleeee he had me sucked into believing all kinds of bs about methanol until I came here and got set on a proper path. Don't get mad, this place is a lot of great fun and schooling is what HD is all about. Something didn't ring right about the PID stuff and sure enough everything wrong about it has been posted here many times. I use gas however, and I recommend it highly. Common sense tho common sense.

[seabass]

For what it's worth, I have a PID that I used for years for brewing. It worked great for mashes, but always cycled on and off while boiling. I tried changing settings like crazy, but the bottom line is I would have to set it above boiling for it to work and it would then boil too vigorously. There was NO way to control the level of the boil without going into manual mode.

And there is the problem. What you want for distilling is a consistent controllable boil, not a consistent temperature.

If you want a complex controller that gives you something to play with, just get an auber power controller. It has PID like function (they call it ai controlled) and will fit directly where that Inkbird PID goes. Similar size, better software, lots of options for ways to control your still and mash.

[MartinCash]

I love the way George keeps defending his PID bullshit and we keep having a constant, never-ending stream of "I can't get my PID-based-still to run properly" refugees. Why is George not the one answering a gazillion questions on why his method doesn't work? Because he wants to sell you a PID.

It's a crying shame so many are so touchy after having spent good money only to find out they've been sold something not fit for purpose. But this is a fairly natural reaction.

I for one am pretty tired of seeing virtually the exact same thread play out a couple of times a week. txcheddar, if you take the time to read on some of these threads, you'll see why people are being fairly blunt. Don't take it personally, and see it as a chance to learn. When people say:

Get rid of the thermometers and run only in manual.

It's because this is the only way you'll learn to make decent spirits. Once you know what you're doing, you'll be better qualified to know what might work for you and what might not. At that stage, if you want to pull out your PID and have a play, you may have a better base to understand what's happening to you. At the moment you're just shooting the messengers.

[Yummyrum]

If you want a complex controller that gives you something to play with, just get an auber power controller. It has PID like function (they call it ai controlled) and will fit directly where that Inkbird PID goes. Similar size, better software, lots of options for ways to control your still and mash.

I agree seabass and was going to post that yesterday until I realised the OP had said he wasn’t coming back .
Still.... I guess others may read the topic and it is useful down the track .
All you are replacing is the PID . The case , SSR—DA , fans , heatsinks , plugs sockets etc stay the same :
DSPR1 is a good no frills option .

[Saltbush Bill]

I love the way George keeps defending his PID bullshit and we keep having a constant, never-ending stream of "I can't get my PID-based-still to run properly" refugees.

Im guessing youve seen his latest vid defending PID use.....he does mention in that one that he has deleted " some of his early PID vids from Youtube"
I wonder why that could be?
What ever the case he seems to remain convinced that they work.

[NZChris]

I love the way George keeps defending his PID bullshit and we keep having a constant, never-ending stream of "I can't get my PID-based-still to run properly" refugees.

I don't love it. I feel sorry for any newbies who stumble on his website. I've never had any training in whatever branch of psychology is required to undo the damage the likes of George does to newbies without offending them and scaring them off. Should I give it my best shot, or let them flounder? What do you reckon, Cheddar?

[MartinCash]

I don't love it. I feel sorry for any newbies who stumble on his website. I've never had any training in whatever branch of psychology is required to undo the damage the likes of George does to newbies without offending them and scaring them off. Should I give it my best shot, or let them flounder? What do you reckon, Cheddar?

I forgot the </sarcasm> tag on that one.

[Corsaire]

The sad part is the op understood what we were trying to say. He saw his pid setup was not the best.

Seems like he didn't like the tone here. Funny, the guy's 57. And they call my generation snowflakes.

As to what strategy's best, I don't know. Depends on the person I guess. Perhaps in this case let him make one mistake at a time?
Moot point now. Anyone have video editing skills? I guess he does have a point. Besides still it there's basically no good videos on youtube for a noob to follow.

[NZChris]

Being good at making Youtubes doesn't make you a distiller any more than being a distiller means you can make good distilling Youtubes.