Novice CM Still, looking for upgrade options

[UncleBuhlahkay]

Hello,

I’ve been lurking here for quite some time, reading and chasing every nuance down the rabbit hole. I’ve been refining my still components and washes bit by bit over the last several months and taking copious notes while doing so… and, I feel like the time has come to reach out and get some opinions on upgrade options.

Several years ago I purchased what is essentially a “Econ Pot or Reflux” kit from an online shop - basically pulled the trigger before I had done even a fraction of what I have currently researched! Life and kids and sports - well, needless to say, the device got shelved for a long while! Until… lately (as I imagine many of have had a bit more time on our hands, and have probably rekindled this art!)

It’s a basic el-cheapo “package”. The boiler is a 13 gallon “milk jug” with a decent wall thickness and excellent welds. 6500w stainless element driven by essentially an SCR with a fan and a digital output operated on a dedicated 240v 30a circuit. Has a thermowell for a boiler thermometer and a butterfly valve for ease of dumping the waste. The boiler currently has a 3” tri-clamp reduction on the snap on lid - but can be swapped to a 2” or a 4” for something like $40US.

The 3” column is 24” (600mm), and there is an accompanying sight glass on top, before the reflux portion of the head.

I place an immersion pump into a pool that I use to supply cooling water to the system (and return warm water to the pool!) The cooling lines are split so that the product condenser and reflux condenser each have their own supply for cooling water. The product condenser has a hefty ball valve that I typically run wide open. The reflux jacket has a hefty needle valve that I use to have finer control over the reflux.

Mash water source is either filtered city water, or collected from a friend’s artesian well. Mash is typically some derivation of FFV - kept at 85C for the ferment - generally starting at 1.065 and finishing at 0.990 - using DADY. Sometimes clarified with chitosan and kieselsol (bulk “super-kleer”), sometimes not (no noticeable difference using clarifying agents).

This still works really great, as is, for stripping runs. And it works pretty good for making a neutral… but pretty good is not anywhere good enough for what I would like to do - which is make a tasteless and odorless vodka… so that I can then begin to chase gin down the rabbit hole - which is my current end game! Essentially I get a very smooth, not-quite-right, spirit that the neighbors seem to enjoy.

After running it hard for the last several months I feel that no matter how I drive it… it is essentially a kind of a “jack of all trades, master of none” sort of still.

I think the boiler and associated power controller are adequate for my vodka/gin quest, but the head and the column seem suspect. Additionally, it's a real pain to store the "head" with the permanently connected product condenser - so I'm definitely interested in some form of upgrade...

When running a spirit run I’ll typically pack the entire 24” spool of the column with flat copper mesh rolled into bundles, and one in the reflux jacket of the head as well. I’ve mixed the packing up with raschig rings to the sight glass, copper and raschig, and most permutations thereof - from little to loads of packing.

It’s pretty easy to reflux this thing into getting a continuous 93 ABV (non temp corrected), and the compression of tails is pretty amazing and repeatable. However the heads seem a bit of a smear. I collect, without a parrot, 300ml per jar, apply coffee filters to the jars, and let them sit for sometimes up to a week… and I’m still not getting a tasteless or odorless spirit. I’ve tried carbon filtering the cuts. And, despite my best efforts, and a boatload of reading… I keep ending up with a very smooth, pretty high ABV, that just doesn’t taste quite right... and I think I'm really realizing there is a huge chasm between 93 ABV and azeotropic!

So, my current questions are:
Would it make sense to research a different column/head design?
To me, the boiler/power seem completely adequate, is that true?
Would another 12” or 24” of column spool make a significant difference?
Would investing in SPP be a wise choice when hunting for vodka?
Should I scrap everything from the sight glass up and get a dephlegmator and a shotgun condenser?
I have yet to use sodium carbonate on a spirit run - would that make a significant difference?
Am I just driving this thing wrong and need to try different techniques?
What is Martinizing, and why does it only take one hour?

The questions are really endless, but please let me say a hearty thank your for all the site contributions y’all have made to this magical art!

[bluefish_dist]

First, your probably a bit further away from azeo than you think as you are not temperature corrected. Both temperature correction and accuracy of your Hydrometer is critical if you want to measure abv that is close to or at azeo. FWIW my cheap 0-200proof hydrometer was off by 3 proof.

More height, 12 or better yet, 24” will get you closer to azeo. More height will be a lot cheaper than SPP. I was never able to get better performance with Spp, but did with more height. For flavor, try less packing. Try 12” for a whiskey.

Power is fine for what you want to do. Same goes for your still head if it can knock down full power.

Sodium bicarbonate is really a polishing technique, don’t expect big changes.

[T-Boon]

Have you thought about doing a Birdwatchers or kale wash recipe to make sure its not a recipe issue?

Some people report getting much less flavour in their neutral that way?

[WithOrWithoutU2]

+1 on adding height. General rule is 1:12 to 1:30 column diameter to height for neutral. Your Height Equivalent to Theoretical Plates will determine which end of that spectrum is needed.

BFD did not have good experience with SPP but others have. If you can get it to work for you, it let's you have a shorter column and run a little faster. Figure out your best packing material for you. But I'd suggest you consider some copper scrubbers. You need some copper in your set up somehow.

Insulate the column as well. It will make it easier to dial in and cause less swings in temps.

I pretty much started with the same setup. Nothing wrong with that column, but I agree with you that is a jack of all methods, but master of none. For Neutral have you considered making your own CCVM column/head? Same with whiskey/rum column? I've made some. And believe me...If I can do it, ANYONE can make them.

[Deplorable]

I have the same still in a 2" column. You'd be happier with the head if you cut the liebig off, and replaced it with a more efficent design. Im replacing mine with a 36" 3/4 over 1/2 inch. I just finished a water pressure test of my solder joints tonight. Now Im waiting for a 1.5 inch TC, plates and a gasket, to mount it to the head. Then your head will fit in the boiler with the rest of the parts and hoses. (Other than a long liebig)
I could not get my output temperature below 80F no matter how I ran the cooling water from tap.
I've yet to play with the RC portion other than when I did my cleaning run, so I dont know what the full potential of it is. But, if I was going to try for a neutral, the first thing I'd buy is another 24" spool and pack them both with mesh, then insulate both sections with reflectix.
Your overall height will be so tall with that you'll want it sitting on the floor to read your head temp.

[UncleBuhlahkay]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated!

I've tried TPW, FFV, and a pure sugar washes - not a whole lot of variation on output - then again I'm striving for neutral...

It's relatively inexpensive to add an additional 24" spool. Do you think if the bottom spool were packed with raschig rings and the top spool were packed with rolls of copper the HETP of that 48" would support reaching azeo?

I'm not really interested in manufacturing my own equipment - that said, what would you purchase to throw on top of the sight glass - assuming a total packed column height of 48"? Or is it wiser to go with an entirely different column - switch to bubble plates and a dephlegmator?

I'm using this for copper in the column currently

[Saltbush Bill]

Its just a plan bad design for a reflux still.
The un insulated column is one problem.
Bubble plates and deflegs are not desgned to make Azeo either.
They will do it with a long enough packed section placed on top.
Making a truely flavourless and odorless neutral is a lot harder than you might think. It will probably involve multiple distilations and maybe even charcoal filtering.
A good wash to begin the process is imperative......Shadys Sugar Shine Recipe is a good starting point.

[shadylane]

A taller insulated column with a better dephleg would help.
Here's a packing option that is both cheap and very effective.
Stuff a copper roll in the bottom of your column, then top it off with these ceramic rings.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=77413

[bluefish_dist]

I had great luck with stainless scrubbies. A solid 4” HETP, backed up with testing. It was the cheapest and most effective packing I tried. I ran it from 2” up to 6”. Worked well in all sizes. It did take efficient packing of 6 or 7 per layer to make it work in the 6”.

[UncleBuhlahkay]

So, this is crushing me! I doubled the height of the 3” column by adding an additional 24” of stainless, wrapped the column with a double layer of reflectix. Packed the column, bottom to top, with a roll of copper, 1/2” aquarium filter rings (per Shady’s suggestion) to about 43”, then added another roll of copper.

Charged the boiler with a few gallons of feints and diluted to 40%ABV. Heated to a head temp of 62°C and refluxed for 30 mins. Cut back on the RC water and pulled off fores. Put RC water back up and increased power to and bring head temp to 78°C. Got a steady pencil lead stream coming off.

The thing is, I can’t seem to get better than 91.7% ABV (temp corrected) no matter how I drive this thing with power and RC water!

If I run it at 100ml every 4 minutes I get 91.3% ABV (temp corrected)

If I run it at 100ml every 1 minute 30 seconds I get 91.0% ABV (temp corrected)

If I run it at 100ml every 8 minutes 45 seconds I get 90.7% ABV (temp corrected)

Ugh! Stopped collecting after 3.6 liters, planing on re-running the whole thing again. Any suggestions to increase ABV, or correct processes are greatly appreciated!

[Setsumi]

"Heated to a head temp of 62°C and refluxed for 30 mins. Cut back on the RC water and pulled off fores. Put RC water back up and increased power to and bring head temp to 78°C. Got a steady pencil lead stream coming off."

maybe this is the problem. it seems you have a power controler, which is what you need. BUT you try to distill on temprature. not good.

[Yummyrum]

Can you achieve full reflux with that CM head ?
In other words ,can you completely stop the product by adjusting coolant glow with the needle valve ?

[UncleBuhlahkay]

Yes, yummyrum, shockingly the RC collar can completely knock down the vapor column. I have a massive water pump pushing a swimming pool full of cold water into a tee that takes a line to the PC and RC. Have a ball valve on the lower input line of the RC and a needle valve on the upper exhaust line (allows for a more granular flow control).

There is about 6200w of available power in the boiler. I use it all to get about 10 gal of 40% to full reflux in say 20 mins. Then pull the power back to about 2100w and the RC can keep that fully knocked down - zero extraction and watching the reflux via the sight glass.

I’m guessing my driving technique falls apart at this point. Lots of chasing with water flow rate and power. The disappointing aspect is trying several different permutations of power and RC flow didn’t do a dang thing to change ABV - pretty solid 91% ABV across the spectrum.

Ended up just stripping the feints to rerun when I’ve researched some more!

[shadylane]

If I were running your rig.
I'd start with around 3 -3.5kw
And adjust the Dephleg for a take off rate of around 1ltr per hour.

Here's a calc and some info that might be of help
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... x_calc.htm

High ABV isn't the same as neutral
Don't worry about getting the max ABV out of your rig
Figure out how to feed and run it for the best spirits

And add another 24" to the column
Taller is better.
You want the column to be at least 20 times taller than it is in diameter.
with a 3" column that would be 60" tall.

On a side note, if your sight glass is on top the boiler
Ya can see when, the pot is beginning to boil over
Plus, watch the reflux falling out of the column and into the boiler.

[bluefish_dist]

I agree with shady lane, make it taller. What is your temp at full reflux for equalization? To run closer to azeo you should not be more than .2-.3 deg above equalization. I would try about 3000w, then adjust reflux rate to hold the temperature required. No more than 2l per hour. If you can’t hold that low temperature, then you definitely are not tall enough.

I could get 190+ with 6 ft packed in 4” and going to 8ft got me to 190.5 with an occasional excursion to 191. Imho you need the equivalent to 20 trays to really run 190+ at any decent rate.

[UncleBuhlahkay]

Height limited to 108” for interior use. Boiler is 28”. Adding additional 12” tomorrow and more 1/2” aquarium ceramic packing (takes me to 60” of 3”, ergo 1:20). Planning on ditching the 7” tall sightglass and probably pivot to a modular SS VM design. Emptying the fermenters tomorrow and going with Shady’s sugar shine, pressing the “I Believe” button! Thanks for the advice and driving instructions, I genuinely appreciate the sage advice and will report back with salient info.

[Yummyrum]

I also agree with Shady and Bluefish that you need to run with more power . The 2100w you were using is more typical of a 2” reflux column . ...albeit, at the upper end

I also think a takeoff rate of between 1-2 l/hr when using the higher power should get you up a few % . A 3” should be able to do better than 1l/hr but at that rate , you should be see an improvement in what you are getting .

Seeing you have a sight glass , you should be able to keep creeping up the power until you can see liquid above the packing .... bordering on flooding... If you back the power off a bit from here , you should be running about as efficiently as you can .