Which type of electric element do you use?

[Evil_Dark]

Simple question, but it looks like there is differents opinions on the subjet...
I want to build a pot with immersed element, controlled with a PID controler.
But the standard water heater element is ok? Looks like it is made of a porous blackish material, which seems to be not very "clean" for mash heating?

What are the element you had success with?

Regards

[dieselduo]

Check out the heating elements at Brewhaus

[Evil_Dark]

Well, does Brewhaus are delivering to Canada? That can be an issue.

[Setsumi]

Why a PID?

[TwoSheds]

I look for stainless and good reviews. Dernord brand elements from Amazon have served me well so far.

I'll echo the question on the PID, a standard PID is too slow on/off for distilling purposes but you didn't say if you're building for mashing or for distilling. I like the SSR style which switches much quicker, many others have had good luck with voltage controllers which are more like a traditional 'dimmer' rather than turning on/off.

From there I looked for the largest wattage my circuit could take (leaving 20% or so overhead to not stress the breaker or push the circuit to its limits) and then the lowest watt density that would fit.

[Evil_Dark]

I look for stainless and good reviews. Dernord brand elements from Amazon have served me well so far.

I'll echo the question on the PID, a standard PID is too slow on/off for distilling purposes but you didn't say if you're building for mashing or for distilling. I like the SSR style which switches much quicker, many others have had good luck with voltage controllers which are more like a traditional 'dimmer' rather than turning on/off.

From there I looked for the largest wattage my circuit could take (leaving 20% or so overhead to not stress the breaker or push the circuit to its limits) and then the lowest watt density that would fit.

Good point - for distilling. I wanted to place the probe at the final exit of the vapors, just before they enter the condenser. The PID will maintain the temperature as required, switching the temp as fast as it takes to keep it precisely... That's why i wanted a PID. Maybe it is not mandatory... But I'm used to the PID controls. I will then play with the setpoint temp as needed.

[Evil_Dark]

Why a PID?

To a stable temperature control. Is not a good idea?
I plan to place the temp probe at the top of the column, just before the vapors goes into the condenser.
The PID wil switch on/OFF the element as required to maintain the temperature setpoint. The reaction time can be very fast, I use SSR relays to switch the power to the element. The PID is tunable so It will react as needed...

But again, is there a downside with the PID usage?

Regards

[Setsumi]

Why a PID?

To a stable temperature control. Is not a good idea?
I plan to place the temp probe at the top of the column, just before the vapors goes into the condenser.
The PID wil switch on/OFF the element as required to maintain the temperature setpoint. The reaction time can be very fast, I use SSR relays to switch the power to the element. The PID is tunable so It will react as needed...

But again, is there a downside with the PID usage?

Regards

Temprature control with a PID is good to mash a beer. Means zero in stilling, you need to control power. Stable temprature or temprature control will not help your still. If your PID can do PWM it will work. If you do not have a PWM function look into a SCR, cheap and works to regulate voltage.

[Setsumi]

I look for stainless and good reviews. Dernord brand elements from Amazon have served me well so far.

I'll echo the question on the PID, a standard PID is too slow on/off for distilling purposes but you didn't say if you're building for mashing or for distilling. I like the SSR style which switches much quicker, many others have had good luck with voltage controllers which are more like a traditional 'dimmer' rather than turning on/off.

From there I looked for the largest wattage my circuit could take (leaving 20% or so overhead to not stress the breaker or push the circuit to its limits) and then the lowest watt density that would fit.

Good point - for distilling. I wanted to place the probe at the final exit of the vapors, just before they enter the condenser. The PID will maintain the temperature as required, switching the temp as fast as it takes to keep it precisely... That's why i wanted a PID. Maybe it is not mandatory... But I'm used to the PID controls. I will then play with the setpoint temp as needed.

Distilling (batch distilling) is not about vapour temprature, it is about vapour speed. You can only control vapour speed by controlling boil rate. You will not be able to control vapour temprature, if you try you will either have too high vapour speed or you will loose your boil.

[Evil_Dark]

Distilling (batch distilling) is not about vapour temprature, it is about vapour speed. You can only control vapour speed by controlling boil rate. You will not be able to control vapour temprature, if you try you will either have too high vapour speed or you will loose your boil.

So i would be better to put the probe into the mash, to have a better control of the process?

I was planning to increase the temperature setpoint slowly, as when the production slows down at a given temperature, it's the indicator that the temp need to be raised a notch...? Is that wrong?

[still_stirrin]

But again, is there a downside with the PID usage?

You’ve neglected the “mandatory reading”. You can’t control a still/boiler by temperature. You control vapor production by heat input.

Temperature is a “scaler”, a measurement of the instantaneous property of the fluid, beit a vapor or a liquid.

But for distilling, you have to manage the vapor production (mass per unit time), so the heat input (energy per unit time) is adjusted and set to produce vapor at a steady rate. The temperature will naturally increase as the volatile constituents from the boiler are reduced, leaving a higher ratio of water to alcohol (and other volatiles) in the boiler.

Temperature (being a scaler measurement) will indicate the purity of the vapor at the stillhead, but you can’t “control” the purity by maintaining that temperature. What will happen, is that the PiD will reduce the power input as the temperature approaches the “set temperature” and vapor production will fall off, sending the boiler into a “simmer state” instead of a “rolling boil”.

Now, if you have a PiD that has a “manual mode” that allows you to set a percentage of full power instead of tracking to a temperature, then you can still use it to control the heat element.

The temperature probe, like any thermometer, then simply becomes a means to “monitor progress and performance” of the still. It absolutely won’t guarantee you’ll get only ethanol in your collection vessel.

I strongly urge you to read more on the distilling processes and how you can and can’t control your still.
ss

[still_stirrin]

I was planning to increase the temperature setpoint slowly, as when the production slows down at a given temperature, it's the indicator that the temp need to be raised a notch...? Is that wrong?

You better plan for a looooooooong day distilling. And anticipate you’ll leave half your alcohol in the boiler when you get tired of watching NOTHING come out of the product condenser. Because, as many other newbies before you have dreamed, a PiD is not going to do what you want it to do. Your approach will waste your money and TIME!

Try it and see.
ss

[dieselduo]

Well, does Brewhaus are delivering to Canada? That can be an issue.

Yes they do ship to Canada and internationally

[Setsumi]

Distilling (batch distilling) is not about vapour temprature, it is about vapour speed. You can only control vapour speed by controlling boil rate. You will not be able to control vapour temprature, if you try you will either have too high vapour speed or you will loose your boil.

So i would be better to put the probe into the mash, to have a better control of the process?

I was planning to increase the temperature setpoint slowly, as when the production slows down at a given temperature, it's the indicator that the temp need to be raised a notch...? Is that wrong?

Try to think of distilling as a pot with liquid boiling... now if a pot of liquid boils vigoures and you take a temp reading and you reduce the heat input to maintain a boil but less vigorous, the temp will be the same but the production of steam will differ. Now ask yourself what will controling the vapour temp or the boiler temp help?

[Evil_Dark]

You better plan for a looooooooong day distilling. And anticipate you’ll leave half your alcohol in the boiler when you get tired of watching NOTHING come out of the product condenser. Because, as many other newbies before you have dreamed, a PiD is not going to do what you want it to do. Your approach will waste your money and TIME!

Try it and see.
ss

Ok lol... you shaked the confidence I had on what i've read and learn to date haha! And that is okay, thanks. It may preserve me from doing some mistakes during my firsts run!
I saw some videos and the guy was using PID to control the element, and was reading the vapors temp to do so. It looked very smooth and straight forward...

Do you have any articles / thread about the temperature controlling subject for me to read?

Thanks again, and sorry for the beginner questions.

Regards

[still_stirrin]

… Do you have any articles / thread about the temperature controlling subject for me to read?

Well, I could send a list of threads to read, yes. But, it is better for you to learn how to use the search tools. And read through the many responses to those threads so you indeed learn why and why not to use a PiD.

Spoonfeeding here is NOT ATTRACTIVE.
ss

[Setsumi]

You better plan for a looooooooong day distilling. And anticipate you’ll leave half your alcohol in the boiler when you get tired of watching NOTHING come out of the product condenser. Because, as many other newbies before you have dreamed, a PiD is not going to do what you want it to do. Your approach will waste your money and TIME!

Try it and see.
ss

Ok lol... you shaked the confidence I had on what i've read and learn to date haha! And that is okay, thanks. It may preserve me from doing some mistakes during my firsts run!
I saw some videos and the guy was using PID to control the element, and was reading the vapors temp to do so. It looked very smooth and straight forward...

Do you have any articles / thread about the temperature controlling subject for me to read?

Thanks again, and sorry for the beginner questions.

Regards

Listen to SS... do not trust the info from youtube. And AGAIN try to understand what boil rate, vapour speed and take off speed mean in distilling. If you understand that, you will understand why the old timers could do it on a wood fire. And why there are different types of stills. You will appreciate how to monitor your process with technology or your own faculties to make good product.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Evil... forget about temps. That's not how you run liquor. If someone uses temp data, I generally ignore their post. Everyone has a right to ignorance, but you won't find it enabled here.

[TwoSheds]

Try to think of distilling as a pot with liquid boiling... now if a pot of liquid boils vigoures and you take a temp reading and you reduce the heat input to maintain a boil but less vigorous, the temp will be the same but the production of steam will differ. Now ask yourself what will controling the vapour temp or the boiler temp help?

Exactly THIS! Hardest beginner concept but critical.

Assuming pure water at sea level, boiling on high, 212F degrees. Simmering at 3, 212F degrees. On high you will boil off water a lot faster than at 3 (and create more steam vapor), that's the only difference.

Things change when we mix alcohol and congeners in with the water like in a mash, wash, or whatever but a liquid still hits a temperature where it turns to vapor and, unless you add pressure, won't go above that.

I've found it most useful to have a thermometer in the kettle, and secondarily near the point-of-no-return before the condenser, but both are primarily indicators of what is going on in there, not controllers.

[bluefish_dist]

As someone who is a proponent of using temperature to run a column, I can say, a pid had no place in controlling power on a still. A simple variable power input with a resistor controlled scr is the way to go. Cheap, easy and works well for controlling power input. Search for super simple controller. I have never gone looking for the video you reference, but it seems every newby finds it. It’s not a good way to distill.

Once you do a few runs you will realize that temperature in the boiler and head slowly increases during the run. If you try and drive a boiler at a set point it will slowly reduce power, which is not what is needed. If anything power should slowly increase to keep vapor production the same. Most people ignore this and just run constant power input. Power in is proportional to vapor speed. Vapor speed is a variable that needs to be controlled. Too slow and no output, too fast and you get too much smearing.

For elements, I recommend the stainless steel brewers elements. Ulwd made by camco. They are more money than a big box element. About $45 last time I checked. They don’t rust like a normal water heater element. At one time I had 10+ of them. Used them in fermenters and boilers. They do need cleaned after some runs as dirty wash/wort will build up on the element. I used ss scrubbies to scrub them.

[Stonecutter]

I saw some videos and the guy was using PID to control the element, and was reading the vapors temp to do so. It looked very smooth and straight forward...

Thanks again, and sorry for the beginner questions.

Regards

I’ve come to the conclusion that George pushes his PID so hard because he’s on a mission to help the blind into the hobby. He’s got multiple videos of him with his blind friend using this “audible PID” that’s he’s developed specially for his blind friend. I really think that’s where he’s coming from. He does turn a profit from it as well. Now, is that the best way to run a still? From my personal experience, the answer is a no. The “Information Age” is leading us down the path of ignorance. As has been stated. Use that search bar. PID’s and silicon are hot button topics with members because there are literally hundreds of posts within this forum discussing them.

[Saltbush Bill]

So i would be better to put the probe into the mash

Better to put the whole idea into the garbage can........and do the same with most of the other ideas you see on that same YouTube channel,
that includes set points and being able to control Boiler Temps.
This may help you a little
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html

[The Baker]

Why a PID?

Nothing useful for actual distillation.

Geoff

[Yummyrum]

LOL ,George's blind mate probably wishes he’d just buy him a power controller and piss off and let him stick his finger in a jar to see how fast it’s filling .
Bet blind dudes other senses are quite highly developed .


Anyway , I digress and should not be mentioning him

[Cor-6]

Cor-6 here If you are useing a pid controller they aren’t
The best for fine running but they work well if you don’t go hog wild with a larger wattage element If your boiler is 10 gallons or under don’t use a 3000watt element
You’ll heat the pot up to quick and you’ll have a fun time with your heads I’d go with a 2500 watt 240 volt element so you take about a hour to get through your heads your hears will be allot smoother If use a 8 gallon pot consider going smaller or taking it slow Hope this helps