Simplifying all grain Bourbon

[Ben]

When I emptied the mash tun the next day I found several large blocks of corn in the bottom that didn't get stirred up, they were sticky and starting to self ferment, I believe they are where I lost the efficiency. So this trial data is of no use, but it does make some delicious whisky I will have to go to a keg mash tun if I want to do 12 gallon mashes, no big deal.

I will try the 3 hour mash rest on the next brew day, continue on my 6.5 gallon trial size.

[Sleighahh]

...this has been finishing pretty consistently at 1.018. Will the longer rests make it more fermentable?...

Why not add some glucoamylase to the fermenter to catch any stuff that wasn't converted in the mash? This may be a better option than increasing your mash time if you're trying to keep your brew day short?

Your efficiency percentages are pretty high so you're obviously converting starches to sugars at a pretty decent rate - just maybe not the most fermentable sugars.

Anyway, great thread and method. I've only been doing sugar heads and partial mashes so far in distilling. I think I'll be following this method soon for my first all grain.

[Ben]

That's a good idea, I've used that technique to dry out other things before.

I think the next time I run this I'll do two batches, one will. be the quick schedule and the other one I might go as far as letting it rest over night, then compare the two side by side, should give more defined results.

And I agree, the numbers and efficiency are fine now, would be perfectly good as a recipe; but I'm trying to fill a 5 gallon barrel so I might as well learn everything I can from the effort.

[higgins]

This has been a good discussion.

I've done 5 AG bourbons in the past year, all fermented on the grain. My efficiencies were low, the best being about 65%, so I decided to give this process a go, modified a bit to fit my equipment. I have a 100 qt Coleman cooler with a DIY copper tubing/ss braid manifold that I use as my corn cooker/mash tun, and a cordless drill with paint mixer (with extra battery). My boil kettle is 15 gallons, 5500w element, with a DIY pot still head.

The recipe:

• 40 lbs cornmeal
• 15 lbs rye malt
• 7.5 lbs distillers malt
• 2 lbs rice hulls
• 1 gal backset
• 1 oz sebstar htl
• 1 oz sebamyl gl
• 6 tsp DADY

The process:

Day 1: started mid morning

• preheat cooler with boiling water for a few minutes.
• mix 13 gal near boiling water (with backset) and 40 lbs cornmeal into cooler. temp is about 180F
• add sebstar htl & mix very well, mixing again every half hour for 3 hours total
• add 1 gal cool water (around 65F) to drop temp to 155F
• add remaining grains along with 6 gal 160F water (maxxed out the cooler capacity). Temp settled at 150F
• again mix every half hour for 2 hours, temp dropped about 15 degrees. Add sebamyl and rest for another hour
• mix well and begin draining, recirculating the first gallon or so to help clarify.
• I collected about 10 gallons before it stopped.
• Added another 10 gallons hot water, mixed, drained (overnight)

The initial drain off was low and slow, and afterward I noticed a fair amount of cornmeal packed around the SS braid. Next time I'll leave out the drain manifold until ready to drain, then scoop out the mash, install the manifold, then add the mash back before draining. This was a long day, but it didn't require my full attention so I was able to multitask and get other things done too.

Day 2: started mid morning

• Had about 20 gallons @ 1.080 at this time.
• added another 8 gallons hot water, mixed, drained. Got a total of 28 gallons @ 1.068.
• When temp dropped to 80F I oxygenated the wort and pitched 6 tsp DADY.
• hung a muslin bag with oyster shells in the fermenter to ensure it didn't get too acidic.

after a 4 day ferment it was at 1.000, 8.7% ABV.

Day 6:
reserved 1 gallon of wash, did 2 stripping runs of 13.5 gallons each. I collected about 8.25 gallons @ 25%. Sealed the fermenter to harvest the yeast in a few days.

Day 7:
Added reserved wash, strippings, and 1 qt feints from a previous bourbon run. Did a long slow spirit run (1.5 Liters per hour), and after cuts I had very nearly 2 gallons @ 125pr for aging.

I did not boil my wort prior to fermentation, and 2 days later when I went to pull out the yeast into a sanitized jar I found that the yeast was contaminated with mold, so I discarded it. DADY is cheap, so I won't worry about saving the yeast.

So other than the long amount of time it took to sparge this went a lot smoother than my earlier ferment on the grain batches. More than 90% of the theoretical maximum of the sugars in the grain made their way into my wort. As an added bonus, this white dog had much more corn character than previous batches.

I want to thank Ben for starting this thread and pushing me to try to sparge a corn mash. This will become my standard process for mashes with a high percentage of corn.

[Ben]

The initial drain off was low and slow, and afterward I noticed a fair amount of cornmeal packed around the SS braid. Next time I'll leave out the drain manifold until ready to drain, then scoop out the mash, install the manifold, then add the mash back before draining. This was a long day, but it didn't require my full attention so I was able to multitask and get other things done too.

Your welcome, glad it helped someone.

Rather than do all this extra work with hot meal, try adding the rice hulls to your tun first thing, then the corn and water and give it a good stir, stirring is probably the thing that most effects efficiency. By putting the rice hulls in first if you miss a bit you should still be able to run fast. I had a similar problem on my last batch (had the MT too full to stir well).

I need to get on board with the big mashing equipment. I am jealous of your output! 5 gallons at a time just isn't going to do it

I am going to be working on the parallel batch test today/tomorrow.

It may be the lack of sterilization/boil that other distillers are using is part of why they are getting lower final gravities than I am. I am using a beer yeast with ~80% attenuation and my numbers match that. A small lacto infection would fix that right up!

[Ben]

One more thing, since you are using meal, try bumping up the rice hulls by half and see where it gets you.

[Ben]

I am going to post up notes on todays mash live through the day (for my own benefit). I will just keep editing this post.

This will be the slow process lower gel temp half of the 2 process comparison 2 gel temp comparison mash/ferment

Target OG 1.070
Target volume: 6.0 gallons into the fermenter (6.25 gallons total with losses).

Start time: 0845
4.5 gallons of water, 1 gallon backset into HLT, heat to 203 (≈Boiling for me).
Mill 12.5lbs corn
Add corn, water and 1 tsp Sebstar HTL to mash tun
Starting mash temp after stabilization: 172°f
Starting mash time 0915
Starting pH 3.54

I upped the water for a Few reasons: one is that I spaced pre-heating the mash tun, the mash tun and corn are both outside and were somewhere around 32°, a thin mash is easier to work with, usually produces a higher efficiency, and this keeps me from having to heat more water later in the day when I drop the temp and add the rye and barley.

The 172° temp is a little low.

1215 opened and stirred to a temp of 153°f
Added Sebstar GL, milled barley and rye
covered and let temp stabilize, 148°f
pH 4.01

1350 started vorlauf, started heating sparge water.

1415 started fly sparging. First runnings: 1.046
Sparged to 1.019. pH was still 4.01 so I could have collected a bit further. Most interested in repeatability.
Pre-boil gravity 1.037

1505 boil begins.

1730 work complete.

5 gallons at 1.052 og. This equates to 55% efficiency, or the worst batch so far. Will run again tomorrow, will change nothing but the gel rest temp and see where it goes. This small batch will fit in my small fermenter.

[Ben]

Groundhog day is here! This test will not be what I originally planned, instead it will focus on the gel temp which is another question I had. Going to try to do everything as similarly today to yesterday as possible. It is a bit warmer out today but I don't think that will have a measurable effect.

This time I remembered to pre-heat my mash tun and did a little math, which led me to realize I would need 6.5 gallons of liquid to beat the 180° temp with the grain temp etc. Maybe I will move my grain inside (challenge of high altitude brewing: low boil temp). So I heated up 5.5 gallons of water, 1 gallon of backset to 203, added it and milled corn/rice hills, temp at 182°, added HT enzyme.
Temp stable at 1030hrs.

Pulled lid at 1330 to start cooling. I observed the corn seemed quite a but gooeyer today than it did yesterday, hopefully instrumentation will confirm later.

1400: added barley and rye, Sebamyl GL, 1 gallon cool tap water to bring temp to 145° for Saccharification rest. pH 4.24

1600: Started vorlauf. In this case I am running through my HERMS coil set at 162° to bring the temp up to thin the sugars. (Really not necessary, just trying to optimize since I am spending so much time on this. And yesterday was such a bust)

1630: First runnings are coming off, I am running slowly today to ensure I get everything. First running gravity: 1.053, this is huge since even though I have 2 gallons more wort in the mash tun I am .007 higher gravity on first runnings.

About pH: I am uncertain if this is actually an issue. My pH is low, beta amalyse would really like to be right around 5.0. I feel like the low pH (largely from adding backset) could be helpful in breaking down the corn. I "could" add shells to the mash tun and see if the pH change makes a difference. They are real cheap and easy since they are essentially self regulating. I use them in the ferment.

Oh, and the smell of the mash tun, with 4th gen backset, smells like something secreted from an angel.

1704 running very slow. I am going to increase the rice hulls by 50% next time. This really messes with fly sparging and is at least a bit inconvenient for batch sparge.

Pulled runnings to 1.015, this is where I started to see pH climb (4.38). Boiled about 3 hours. The thin mash causes a lot more runnings to be pulled. I will keep the grain in a warm area so I can cut back on the water addition in the future. I would gladly lose 5% efficiency off of this to cut my boil time by half.

Let the boil go a bit long, ended with 5.5 gallons in the fermenter at 1.082 or 93% efficiency. This is very likely practical peak for me on feed corn, its very close to peak numbers for all barley (I am tuned to run beer around 88%, higher than that produces an inferior product). Next run I will will speed up the gel rest and mash and see how much of a penalty there is. I am going to adjust pH on the next run and see how it effects the fermentability, as this seems to be the other major hurdle for my process.

It would seem the gel rest temp is critical. But beyond 182, at least on milled corn would appear unnecessary.

I will water down to 1.070 in the morning and pitch.

[still_stirrin]

Lots of math there, Ben. What calculator RU using? Good info.
ss

[Ben]

I do back of hand math using total mass and temp. But mostly I just rely on beersmith to develop recipes and do the hard stuff for me, then tune via experience. I used to do everything longhand in a notebook... I do most everything digitally now. It was good to learn all of this stuff and how to make the calcs, because now I can approximate things somewhat competently but software just makes it a lot less work.

[squigglefunk]

why does this not seem like simplifying at all lol

[Ben]

Because I am going to great lengths to test what you lose when you do a 1 hour gel, 1 hour mash and dump it in the fermenter. I could have just said do that, but what sort of science would that be

It's getting there I will make a run the weekend after thanksgiving then hopefully the final iteration of this recipe goes into the new mash tun. Shooting for a 4 hour all grain brew day, and if it isn't perfected then I get to make more!

I am mission oriented, so the only way I can get myself to focus this much, and put this level of effort into something is to create a very narrow set of parameters to hit. There is a reward; I don't get all that excited about a 12 hour brew day, so I am front loading the work. Once this is fully dialed in and as quick as it can reasonably be I get to be quick and effective on brew days, then I can focus on the distillation and whisky art a lot more. This base recipe will work with oats or corn and whatever barley/rye and as long as the base technique is followed it should work for any of them, in any ratio.

[squigglefunk]

so not simplifying as much as trying to make your mashing faster? But you keep talking about boiling gallons of liquid down? How many hours does that take? That happens before you dump it in the fermenter right?

you could just get some of that yellow cake angel yeast that seems so popular here! Just dump all the crap into a big container, throw the magic yellow cake in there and do nothing!

[still_stirrin]

why does this not seem like simplifying at all lol

For some, “calculation” is easier than “stumbling & fumbling” on brew day. I too, prefer to “pre-calculate” my infusion steps and water thermal loads before mashing to better focus my efforts on brew day towards the physical tasks of the day. It makes the process a lot less “potluck” and much more “predictable”.

Sure, many here prefer the “seat of the pants” method. But, until you’ve done the same process (and recipe) many, many times that it actually becomes like second nature and you can trust your instincts. “Practice makes perfect” does apply but somehow you need to narrow the divergent anomalies. So, pre-calculation does help (and simplify).
ss

[still_stirrin]

… you could just get some of that yellow cake angel yeast … dump all the crap into a big container … and do nothing!

YOU could, and others would. But, to some the brew day process is as much a part of the hobby as is the day of distillation. For a dedicated homebrewer in this hobby, the mash and process is an important component of “the reward”. It is “a part of the art”.

As for the “yellow Angel yeast”, it can be a good recovery “catch all”. But it may not be what every hobbiest prefers to use. You can use a mop to clean up a messy floor, but wouldn’t it be better to not make the mess to begin with?

If you are just looking for some quick (and easy) liquor, then shortcuts may be the optimum approach in your brewery. Go for it. But others may actually enjoy the process from end-to-end.
ss

[squigglefunk]

[Ben]

As for the “yellow Angel yeast”, it can be a good recovery “catch all”. But it may not be what every hobbiest prefers to use. You can use a mop to clean up a messy floor, but wouldn’t it be better to not make the mess to begin with?
.
ss

Well stated, and I agree. For me, Angel yeast yellow leaves a flavor I'm not really fond of, you find it in things like sake and kimchi. I would rather just make ujssm or some other sugar base.

There is one other thing I overlooked talking about, which is control. I need to find the wide margins of the recipe to figure out where flaws start to come out. Coming from the beer world i know that if I exceed 88% mash efficiency the beer starts to take a nose dive. The first "high efficiency" mash I did produced a noteworthy (though Minor), biting bitterness in the early tails. I want to see if that comes over again with the most recent batch. From the runs so far the faster mashes seem to taste better, warmer, more buttery, more complex, but only age will really tell. My current philosophy is better product flavor into the barrel will give better products out.

As for the boil? Optional. The sugar content doesn't change, final alcohol won't change by much. It's a step I'm working toward removing/minimizing. The reason for doing it is to consolidate the sugars into a more manageable volume. It also MAY produce a more flavorful final product, although that is something that I haven't tested or read great documentation about. Eventually maybe I'll step up to a larger boiler, but for now this saves that pain.

Another reason to do it is I like big beers, and the way they are made your pulling just the first runnings out of the mash, leaving a ton of stuff behind. Traditionally this is pulled to make a second, lighter beer but could produce a very nice whiskey or blending agent. I could use the same dual mash techniquewith whiskey and hot rock the second half.... That sounds really delicious! Maybe early next year.

[squigglefunk]

[BrewinBrian44]

When I first started all grain bourbon mashes, I didn’t want to ferment on the grain and used a similar process to what you describe.

Honestly, if you have a mop wringer and a brew bag, fermenting on grain is a piece of cake. I also greatly scaled up my batches by splurging for a 50 gallon kettle with a port for a 5500 watt heating element, but if you have a keg boiler, you can use that to heat your water and add your corn in a couple steps, fermenting in an inexpensive trash can.

My current process is about as simple as it gets. I do 25 gallon batches, which makes it take less time to cool to pitching temps with my wort chiller.

I collect 25 gallons of filtered water in the kettle, flip on the element and wait for a rolling boil, then add fine ground corn meal and mix with a drill and mortar mixer. I let it sit for a half hour then add 15ml of seb HTL enzyme, it makes the thick mash thin out almost instantly as I mix with the drill. After this I drop my wort chiller in the hot kettle to naturally sanitize, wrap the kettle in blankets, the let time do the work and go to bed.

By morning, my mash is usually close to 150 degrees. At this point, I add my malts and 15 sebamyl GL to ensure total conversion, then head to work. When I get home, the mash is usually sitting at 130ish degrees and I’m fully converted, sitting at 1.060 SG. Wort chiller gets kicked on while I use the mortar mixer to circulate the water to speed things up.

Once I’m down to my pitching temp, I sprinkle the yeast right on the top, add 5tsp of chalk to regulate ph drop and 1tbsp of DAP to prevent sulfur production. Ferment usually takes a week with US05 yeast.

With this process, I’ve always landed at less that 1.000 final gravity and never stall or see slow ferments.

After the ferment, I siphon the liquid off the top and collect stray pieces of grain with my brew bag and immediately strip the “easy” wash, which is usually a full charge for my keg boiler. While the still is heating up and running, I scoop the remaining grains into my mop wringer/ brew bag. It really doesn’t take long and I usually recover most of the left over liquid. I also have grains chalked full of free yeast if I decide to make a simple tasty sugar head.

I put the remaining cloudy wash into buckets, then in the chest freezer for an overnight cold crash, or you can just let them clear at ambient temps too. Next day I siphon off and leave the cream behind in the buckets. This is also another full charge for the keg boiler. I do another strip and I’ve got enough low wines for my spirit run.

Moral of the story, if you do big batches, let time do the work, and use a mop wringer to squeeze, all grain is a piece of cake and you get enough product for a spirit run.

I buy fine corn meal from webrestaurantstore.com, the price is pretty damn good and the stuff gels almost instantly. It’s extremely easy to work with.

Not saying this is the “right” way, but it’s made life easier for me.

[Ben]

Thanks for the input. There are some good things in your method. I just picked up a 20 gallon mash tun so I will be bumping things up a bit. I ran a batch of this yesterday, gave it more time to clear and added Sebamyl GL to the ferment, it came out dry.

I haven't found any Sulphur coming through in this recipe, is that something you have noticed with multiple generations of a sour mash? I am just relying on the grain and the dead yeast added for nutrient.

[BrewinBrian44]

Once you start doing large batches, you'll realize it's the same amount of work for much more product and never go back. When I first started this hobby, I only had a 6 gallon still and it took forever to build enough low wines for a spirit run. Also, now that I have a plated column and a keg boiler, I get enough volume to do one and done sprit runs.

I add DAP as cheap insurance for a healthy ferment. Free amino nitrogen really helps the yeast. Adding boiled yeast is also a great food source as well, but I haven't really seemed to need it.

[Ben]

Ran this again today. First time on the 20 gallon tun there were some teething issues, spills etc but nothing world ending.

Pre-heated tun, added 5 gallons water, 3 gallons backset, 10oz rice hulls, 25lbs corn, stirred. Locked it up at 181. 90 minutes later it was at 180.5, I added 2 gallons cool water to bring the temp below 160, added malts, stirred, mash started at 148°

I bumped up the backset by half to try to get a little more sour flavor going on, and speed the corn processing portion. I figured I would add oyster shells when I dropped the temp and added grain to regulate the pH. This ended up being a mistake. After an hour mash rest I did a starch test, was deep fail. I added some liquid enzyme and let it sit another hour, fast fail again. I checked the pH, measured in just a hair above 3. I am sure that nuked the enzymes, I added enough baking soda to bring it up to 5.0, added more enzymes and let it go another hour. Still wasn't perfect but I went ahead and ran it off. I don't think the shells break down rapidly enough to regulate the mash.

I did boil, only for 30 minutes. I am headed to Mexico in a few days and will be gone for three weeks so this is probably not getting run until after the new year. I wanted it sterile, lacto funk is fine but who knows why my generations old yeast has in it. I have a freshly washed cake of WLP004 from a stout that I will use, it should be sterile. Washed down the fermenters and dropped in the wort hot for no chill. I knew this would make a slightly boring wash so I replaced a bit of the rye. 2 lbs oak smoked wheat, 8 oz chocolate wheat, 8 oz biscuit malt.

13 gallons @ 1.054. 74% efficiency. I am not really surprised at the low numbers with the conversion issues, minimal run and minimal boil. Also not worried about it. I am happier to have efficiencies in the high 70's-80s. It seems to make a better product. I will drop in some low temp enzyme with the yeast and it may convert a touch more sugar during the ferment.

With proper ferment temps I haven't ever had nutrient issues with all grain. I use DAP when I am running fruits or honey, or if building starters, just haven't seen a need in all grain. The added yeast at the boil (in the water with the backset), mineralogy of the water seems to be plenty.

[BrewinBrian44]

For your future mashes, you should consider using sebstar htl enzyme and glucoamylase. Sebstar is used at high temps and breaks all the starches down into smaller chain dextrins, which are then further broken down later in the mash with your malts and amylase. The stuff is amazing and makes your mash thin out very rapidly. Like 30 seconds.

For ph control after adding a lot of acid, try not to use baking soda, sodium is not healthy for yeast. Oyster shells are a slow burn, meant for controlling ph drop during your ferment.

I use chalk “calcium bicarbonate.” It’s a powder, so it incorporates better into liquid and is cheap. It’s much more soluble in the presence of acid too. I use it in ujssm when I’m doing many generations of sour mash. Works great!

[Ben]

I am using them. Read through the rest of the thread for details and ratios.

Can you cite the comment on baking soda? I can find nothing directly stating not to use it.

There would have to be chlorine available to create NaCl, assuming there isn't as the water I used in this had boiled, and my tap water is not treated with chlorine. The reaction should have been sodium acetate. Lets assume for a minute that I used 2 teaspoons of baking soda, 10 grams. I used about 18 gallons of water, ~150lbs, 68000 grams. This works out to about 147ppm. Tap water can have up to 250ppm.

This BYO article suggests sodium acetate is a usable salt for a buffer solution: https://byo.com/article/advanced-brewing/

This peer reviewed article uses sodium acetate in the buffer solution to test fermentation outcomes https://academic.oup.com/femsyr/article/3/2/149/590373

This peer reviewed article uses sodium acetate in their yeast washing solution. I can't imagine sodium acetate to be toxic to the yeast if they are using it in the wash process... https://www.mdpi.com/2311-5637/4/3/66/htm

As I have no children available for pilfering I don't have chalk. Its probably moot, but I won't add that much backset again, souring the mash then balancing it out does nothing but add unnecessary salts. Maybe I should have thrown in some berry tums

[Saltbush Bill]

but I won't add that much backset again, souring the mash then balancing it out does nothing

I use it in ujssm when I’m doing many generations of sour mash. Works great!

Bens on it ..use less backset, Ive done 9-10 years worth of UJ, generation after generation, still on the original yeast from the very first Ferment.......never once had to adjust PH or start off again. If your ferments are slowing your using to much..that simple.