Fermenting on Grain Process

[JB_12]

Planning my next bourbon mash. I am wanting to do a high wheat bourbon (52% flaked corn, 33% wheat, 15% barley). Looking to cook the flaked corn and mash separately from the wheat and barley and just use alpha amylase enzymes to convert corn. Then planning to cool the corn mash with some cold sparge water and transfer to fermenter. The wheat and barley am planning to filter out in my mash tun, pasteurize, cool, then transfer liquid only to fermenter with corn mash.

I’ve heard barley, wheat with husk can lead to tannic and harsh flavors if fermented on grain. So trying to only ferment corn on grain. What are your thoughts?

[NormandieStill]

Not noticed harsh tannins from grains at mashing temps. In general the rule seems to be not to cook them (barley that is... wheat has no husk). In any case I don't know that the tannins will distill over anyway.

When I made my chocolate bourbon, I used light chocolate barley malt. I was following the protocol for Honey Bear Bourbon, but decided not to chuck the chocolate malt in with the corn to avoid the astringency. I used some HT alpha-amylase to keep the corn manageable while it cooked in.

[greggn]

I am wanting to do a high wheat bourbon (52% flaked corn, 33% wheat, 15% barley). Looking to cook the flaked corn and mash separately from the wheat and barley and just use alpha amylase enzymes to convert corn.

Any reason you're not using a gluco-amylase enzyme as well ?

The wheat and barley am planning to filter out in my mash tun, pasteurize, cool, then transfer liquid only to fermenter with corn mash.

No need to pasteurize.

[Twisted Brick]

Just curious, but why are you planning on using expensive (pre-gelatinized) flaked wheat when you’ve committed to conducting a proper mash? Locally, MoreBeer flaked wheat is more pricy than wheat malt which also brings DP to the party.

Tannins (found in many edible foods) are normal and expected in developing proper beer flavor. Excessive tannins that cause astringency are to be avoided, and are accelerated by mash (and sparge) pH’s higher than 5.9-6.0, not elevated temperatures on their own. FWIW, all my small grains are hammer-milled to a medium-fine meal (like commercial distillers do) including 2-row (the only one with a husk). Like Normandystill I detect no astringency from excess tannins. Your mash bill has but 15% tannin potential from barley husks.

Procedurally, ‘filtering’ (sparging?) your wheat and barley is redundant since you will still have to squeeze your bourbon ferment once its finished unless you're equipped to distill on-grain. Pasteurizing your ‘wort’ is more a beer protein/hot break step not needed in distillation. Pasteurizing also destroys valuable enzymes that if left intact, do valuable residual conversion duties throughout the ferment.

There are a host of threads here outlining proven bourbon mash regimes with efficiencies refined through repetition and testing. And by all means, have a read through the Tried and True section. I can't recall any of them ever mentioning (having to correct) tannic flavors.

[JB_12]

Thank you all for the responses.

Will be using wheat malt. Barley and wheat malt in mash and then corn in a separate mash with added enzymes. I will skip the pasteurization based on your feedback, that is great information and makes sense. I didn’t want to add any husk material to the fermenter based on what I’ve read about tannins. Perhaps it is the acidic environment + alcohol + time that leeches tannins during fermentation from husk material? Also, I have a stainless steel mesh tube that my racking cane goes into to filter out solids when transferring. I use this for beer making when separating fruit from mixed culture beers that were aged on the fruit. I’m hoping to use this equipment to leave corn behind and remove the wash post-fermentation. Maybe I am naive on this? The stainless steel mesh tube is about as fine a mesh as a muslin bag.

[Twisted Brick]

Thank you all for the responses.

Will be using wheat malt. Barley and wheat malt in mash and then corn in a separate mash with added enzymes. I will skip the pasteurization based on your feedback, that is great information and makes sense. I didn’t want to add any husk material to the fermenter based on what I’ve read about tannins. Perhaps it is the acidic environment + alcohol + time that leeches tannins during fermentation from husk material? Also, I have a stainless steel mesh tube that my racking cane goes into to filter out solids when transferring. I use this for beer making when separating fruit from mixed culture beers that were aged on the fruit. I’m hoping to use this equipment to leave corn behind and remove the wash post-fermentation. Maybe I am naive on this? The stainless steel mesh tube is about as fine a mesh as a muslin bag.

You have that backwards. Excess tannins are extracted from a mash/sparge with a pH that is too high, not too low. Converted mashes naturally drop into safe pH range.

If you do some more reading, you will discover a raft of HD threads cursing the dreaded labor involved in squeezing corn. In short, your tube filter will challenge you to drink heavily, (but that's ok, you'll just make more). Squeezing is a developed technique that is unavoidable yet made tolerable (for me anyway) with music and a coupla beers. I can hand-squeeze 13gal of corn (5g cleared off the top) in 50min using a giant collander and a paint strainer bag (some members use a mop press). The dirty squeezed wash gets cleared in a conical fermenter before running.

If you're gonna use wheat malt, you may as well do a conventional single-vessel mash. Gel and convert your corn with HTL, then add your (properly-milled) malts at 150F. The wheat will easily have enough DP to work on your corn's small-chain starches and bob's yer uncle. Use a good ale yeast (starter!) and keep your ferment temp within range and as stable as you can.

Keep reading and good luck.

[greggn]

Squeezing is a developed technique that is unavoidable yet made tolerable (for me anyway) with music and a coupla beers.

I used to squeeze ... now I strain. Using a bucket strainer, though not even that is hands-free. A well-developed jiggle of the wrist, or alternately a spinning motion, will help the wort flow through.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item. ... &catid=685

At $5USD they're cheap enough to buy a few and then you can use multiple strainers all working in parallel.

[Twisted Brick]

I used to squeeze ... A well-developed jiggle of the wrist, or alternately a spinning motion, will help the wort flow through.

Hmmm, sounds good!

Actually, I'd seen these in the past but never tried them. I'd like to give 'em a go. Question(s)... what type/mill of corn? Is it strained pre/post ferment and how long does it take you to do say, 10lbs of grain?

Thanks for the heads up!

[StillerBoy]

Using a bucket strainer, though not even that is hands-free. A well-developed jiggle of the wrist, or alternately a spinning motion, will help the wort flow through.

MichiganCornhusker used on of those stainer's, and built a setup using one a few yrs back.. I've looked for his thread on it but just can seem to put my hands on..

Mars

[Twisted Brick]

MichiganCornhusker used on of those stainer's, and built a setup using one a few yrs back.. I've looked for his thread on it but just can seem to put my hands on..

Mars

This one?



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61893&start=60

[shadylane]

I’ve heard barley, wheat with husk can lead to tannic and harsh flavors if fermented on grain. So trying to only ferment corn on grain. What are your thoughts?

As pointed out wheat has no husk.
On a side note.
High temp Alpha and Gluco is great insurance.
The bourbon mash bill only has 15% malted barley.
I figure, any tannic flavors from the husk will blend into and become a valuable part of the bourbon.

[StillerBoy]

This one?

Yeah.. thanks TB.. that's the one.. that's when I first tried using the strainer by hand..

Man time fly by, that thread what back in 2016.. brings back some memories of days gone by reading part of that thread..

Mars

[Deplorable]

MichiganCornhusker used on of those stainer's, and built a setup using one a few yrs back.. I've looked for his thread on it but just can seem to put my hands on..

Mars

This one?



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61893&start=60

Jesus, Thats faster than mop bucket squeezing. Wish Id have found that thread before I bought my mop bucket.

[Ben]

Tannins can come from over extraction, or heat with barley or wheat. At 15% it isn't really an issue. If you are going to the effort to sparge, just sparge it all. If your leaving the grain in, leave it all in. Got to get rid of it somewhere, just decide what works with your equipment, lot of labor to get rid of it twice!

[greggn]

I used to squeeze ... A well-developed jiggle of the wrist, or alternately a spinning motion, will help the wort flow through.

Question(s)... what type/mill of corn? Is it strained pre/post ferment and how long does it take you to do say, 10lbs of grain?

Normally I mill feed corn in the AMA (Agristore) mill using the second-finest screen but I've been using food-grade cornmeal and corn flour since the 2020 lockdown. I strain pre-ferment.

I run three (3) strainer-bucket combos in parallel and strain 15 lbs of corn in less than 30 minutes. That said, I'm using the 600 micron screens so, obviously, small particles get by (but that's no different that a paint strainer bag).

[Twisted Brick]

Gonna have to think this one over carefully. I am using restaurant-grade cornmeal, post ferment. Squeeze 26lbs in 45-50min using one stock pot then into secondary. Now if I had a large enough vibrating screen it could cut down on labor and give me something to build….

Thanks for sharing your details, greggn.

[StillerBoy]

I run three (3) strainer-bucket combos in parallel and strain 15 lbs of corn in less than 30 minutes. That said, I'm using the 600 micron screens so, obviously, small particles get by (but that's no different that a paint strainer bag).

Now that a good concept, wish I was still making whiskey's.. gee greggn you're pushing me experiment with grains again..

I really like the ideal of the 3 strainer bucket combo, but have you tried using a 400 micron as a base one or once the mash is run through, and filtering it using some geotex fabric after..

Mars

[greggn]

have you tried using a 400 micron as a base one or once the mash is run through

I have used a 400 micron strainer, both as a stand-alone as well as a second stage beneath a 600 micron, and I found that the "law of diminishing returns" applied. The reduction of trub in my fermenter didn't warrant the lengthier processing time.

[StillerBoy]

Thanks greggn..

Mars

[Dancing4dan]

MichiganCornhusker used on of those stainer's, and built a setup using one a few yrs back.. I've looked for his thread on it but just can seem to put my hands on..

Mars

This one?

I have to give this a try. Not really loving the squeeze thing.

[Tummydoc]

I've gone from hand wringing paint strainer bags, to mop wringing those bags, to using the 600 micron bucket strainers. All too labor/time intensive for my liking. I put 10 gallons of settled wash in my boiler, about 5-7 gallons the settled grain in my thumper (porridge to pancake batter consistency) and run it all. Boiler and thumper are 15.5 gallon kegs. I think this setup is most time efficient.

[jonnys_spirit]

I used to squeeze everything until i got the last drop out then clear to keep all that sediment out of the boiler. The squeezed liquid has significantly more sediment which makes less clear beer for use. I now just make more, use clear from the top, squeeze up to half but maybe less. Do a second ferment so not to loose the good stuff in the grains and might use some molassas or panela plus sugar for second ferment so it comes out a bit more complex than a sugarhead. Maybe a 3rd top up fermenter with water and a little fermentable to strip then chuck the slop. Minimize the squeezing, maximize the strips, consider second and maybe third ferments to stretch things a bit. Make larger ferments. For me it’s worth it and my back agrees with less bending over and squeezing.

Cheers!
-j

[squigglefunk]

at 100Lbs of grain per mash for my current fermenter, I agree, reusing/recycling instead of squeezing is much easier

[Setsumi]

I have build a press for corn. You will never recover all but it is well worth to have some sort of recovery for corn. Malted barley sparge well enough but corn i would suggest doing post ferment.

[JB_12]

I have build a press for corn. You will never recover all but it is well worth to have some sort of recovery for corn. Malted barley sparge well enough but corn i would suggest doing post ferment.

I was thinking about doing 5-10 lb increments of corn in a bucket system press. Three 5 gallon buckets stacked; one on bottom to collect, one in middle with holes drilled in bottom as a false bottom, brew in bag with 5-10 lb corn tied up in middle false bottom bucket, then a 3rd bucket on top as the press with 50 lb of weights inside. Set it up, walk away for 20 mins or so until pressed and repeat for all the corn.

Think this will work? Theoretically saves from the manual squeezing.

[The Baker]

I have build a press for corn. You will never recover all but it is well worth to have some sort of recovery for corn. Malted barley sparge well enough but corn i would suggest doing post ferment.

I was thinking about doing 5-10 lb increments of corn in a bucket system press. Three 5 gallon buckets stacked; one on bottom to collect, one in middle with holes drilled in bottom as a false bottom, brew in bag with 5-10 lb corn tied up in middle false bottom bucket, then a 3rd bucket on top as the press with 50 lb of weights inside. Set it up, walk away for 20 mins or so until pressed and repeat for all the corn.

Think this will work? Theoretically saves from the manual squeezing.

Yep.
Or you could put a BIGGER bucket as the top one and fill it with water as a weight.
Or even just the next lot that is to be squeezed.

Geoff

[Setsumi]

I have build a press for corn. You will never recover all but it is well worth to have some sort of recovery for corn. Malted barley sparge well enough but corn i would suggest doing post ferment.

I was thinking about doing 5-10 lb increments of corn in a bucket system press. Three 5 gallon buckets stacked; one on bottom to collect, one in middle with holes drilled in bottom as a false bottom, brew in bag with 5-10 lb corn tied up in middle false bottom bucket, then a 3rd bucket on top as the press with 50 lb of weights inside. Set it up, walk away for 20 mins or so until pressed and repeat for all the corn.

Think this will work? Theoretically saves from the manual squeezing.

I started that way, it works.