A few Questions or Tips on my New R2D2

[Bubbles2]

Hey Y'all thanks for looking in. I have had some great reads, rabbit holes and advice on here. Thanks for that.

I've played around with an air unit for a couple years and 1 gallon at a time is daunting to state the least.

So I got this Unit and when getting ready to do a vinegar water run, noted that the 5.5kw element needs 3 gal of H2o to be submerged. I read and was advised that you NEVER want to run an element in the dry. Then I thought; "Fine watch the draw vs the input". Get to 3 gal shut it down.
(any Advice on that line of thinking?)
Before you tell me that running an element dry it will glow and with 30% it could fire/explode. I am fine with running low ABV, albeit spoiled a bit from my air unit " being sealed" (aren't they all?) But the caveat is the element in the Air unit is the tub and that the element is under the tub or incorporated and this new one, with that big ol element just sitting in a bath of combustibles with the very combustibles dripping down from a copper packed column. (sorta column albeit a Pot)

I digress
So at shut down I was reading here, and have seen implosions. Sickening to see or read about. So I thought to ask, when I shut it down. Should I wait for my activity to simmer for a few minutes and then crack open that fill hole to avoid a suction dilemma? (pic)

Also on the very end of my Output there are TWO spigots (if you will) one for the product the other for. . . Burping? Would that suffice for that vacuum implosion scare I see?

Lastly I know that Plastic is a NO NO, I learned that by using using a plastic tube that came with my Meter to check S.G of my Wort. Now it's a cloudy opaque tube. I now have a Brew Merica Unit. The spigot begs for silicone tubing since it is a barb. Silicone a No No? Thoughts on getting Copper on there?

I need a Parrot!

R2D2

[StillerBoy]

noted that the 5.5kw element needs 3 gal of H2o to be submerged. I read and was advised that you NEVER want to run an element in the dry. Then I thought; "Fine watch the draw vs the input". Get to 3 gal shut it down.
(any Advice on that line of thinking?)

The fear of running dry with a electric element, is due to the lack of understanding of the two items required to access if the setup is safe..

The items required to be understood is 1) liquid level required to cover the element by 1 - 2", and 2) the ABV of the wash/mash to be stripped.. so once the liquid level to cover the is known, then one has to determine the wash/mash volume amount of ABV to be extracted.. so same say a wash/mash of 5 gal with an ABV of 10%, what is let after the alcohol has been extracted, and that will tell you if is safe or not to cover the element once done.. example.. so a 5 gal of 10% has in theory 2L of 100%, but what will collected will be more in line with about 4 - 5L depending on the overall average stripped to or 50% - 35%.. so what one is let with after the strip run will be in the range 3.5 - 4 gal of liquid in the boiler, which should ample liquid for the element to be covered..

Mars

[greggn]

Also on the very end of my Output there are TWO spigots (if you will) one for the product the other for. . . Burping?

It appears to be intended as an air vent.

[elbono]

Stillerboy's reply tells you how to make sure you put in enough to not expose the element.

I would also watch how much you collect so you know you did that right. Put in enough to cover the element, measure how much more you put in, make sure you don't collect more than that.

This chart shows how distillation works. The blue line shows the temp the liquid boils at the red line shows the temp the vapor condenses at. The yellow lines show you with 10% ethanol/water boiling liquid you will get over 50% condensed liquid out. That means you had 50% vapor which is definitely flammable. Moral of the story is high charge proof is more dangerous but just because you start with low proof charge doesn't mean you are totally safe.

If immersion heaters aren't immersed they will glow red before they melt, when they melt, they'll probably make sparks. You want NONE of that in your still!

Besides the product safety issues silicone tubing creates process safety issues too. They are soft enough they will collapse and close off the flow path especially with a vacuum. Implosion just waiting to happen. I tried using silicone tubing for cooling water in the beginning and issues with collapsing put a stop to that. I can't even use the stuff as siphon because it collapses. I don't recommend silicone tubing anywhere.

I can't tell how that unit is intended to work. The push connects on the second vertical section looks like it's a RC (reflux condenser) but the section below that doesn't look like it's tall enough to do much reflux. I don't see a PC (product condenser). Looks like it would have vapor coming out the bit with the hose barbs. Is there a piece missing? Are you sure it's assembled correctly?

Yes, when your run is over use gloves (steam hurts) to open the fill port and you'll know it can't form a vacuum and collapse that pretty milkcan. I wouldn't wait I would do it as soon as you turn off the heat.

[30xs]

Looking at your first photo it looks like you have your product condenser/shotgun mounted in the riser and nothing to condense your final product. With the shotgun in its proper position the product reducer cap would be on the end and the extra barb seems like it should be a vent to help eliminate surging in a parrot.

Being a pot still it’s open to the environment. There’s nothing to cause a vacuum upon cooling, you should be safe to allow it to cool without needing to crack anything open.

[diktater]

yup, you got your product condenser in the wrong spot(should be on the down side after the elbow). that shotgun looks a little short to handle the full 5.5k regardless. you can get a 2” stainless spool for pretty cheap on amazon if you want more height for the riser to make it easier for collection

[Bubbles2]

Stillerboy thanks for the 2" above element tip

Strip it till I get in a spot where I know I am getting close.
On avg my wort/wash is usually 1095 start and goes to 1000 on end. A little strong so I figure to cut it with H2o to compensate for that element height and give a little cushion. I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

Elbono Thank you for the chart, I am going to get familiar with that. No Silicone Got it. I will see how I can finagle a solid tube on that barb?

I assembled like the picture it was being sold. However. . . that does not mean anything.
Yes that is an R.C and those inlets are for water circulation.
Below that is a hollow tube, which I put a copper scrubby in to slow down the drip. (Bad idea?)

Atop of the R.C are just bends and the one at the top has a thermometer in it and then out to the dual barbed Out.

30X and Diktater, I numbered the Photo so maybe you could help me with the wrongs?

I tried to run a vinegar and water earlier and got nothing but steam until I get a fountain pump to run cooling water.

Thanks you guys.

[SteveH1960]

The RC goes after the elbow on the outlet side. Then the reducer onto the RC for delivery of product.

[SteveH1960]

Sorry. I meant product condenser

[Bubbles2]

@steveH1960 Thanks you guys
Durka Durka Doh!

I left and thought about what was shared and then said DOH!

More like this. . . I just ordered a fountain pump so Tuesday. I pulled out that copper I had stuffed in there and it was black. From the vinegar I suppose

[StillerBoy]

Strip it till I get in a spot where I know I am getting close. No.. you strip until you reach the ABV possible to extract before you stop, and that is somewhere between 40 - 25% overall ABV, determine by whatever it is you made..
On avg my wort/wash is usually 1095 start and goes to 1000 on end. ( the total volume is what is important, the SG range only indicate what potential ABV possible..) A little strong so I figure to cut it with H2o to compensate for that element height and give a little cushion. I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

Before attempting to strip a run, read more as you seem to have misunderstood what was stated about the element level.. the element level is just an indicator.. you need to make a ferment that will give you the alcohol and still have ample liquid left that covers the element.. so if you made just a 5 gal, that will probably not be enough, and 7 gal would be preferred until you have done a few runs and develop info as to what amount is safe..

Mars

[elbono]

There you go, that's a pot still. If you want to try reflux later you've got useful pieces for that too.

I recommend you run it as a pot still a few times before you think about reflux.

Since you're all stainless you want some copper in the system somewhere to reduce sulfites, scrubbers in the riser is a good alternative but real choreboy is hard to find, most nowadays is copper clad steel. Any clean copper will work, wadded up wire, pieces of scrap pipe etc. I have no idea what made yours turn black but replacing it is easy. I made my still from copper pipe so others may have better suggestions on what to use in a stainless system.

The rule here (that I heartily agree with) is product touches no plastic except Teflon. You probably have silicone gaskets in those joints. Here's a current listing on amazon for 2" Teflon ones if your joints are 2".

I use 10x6.5 mm polyurethane tubing for my cooling lines, 10x8 nylon works too but it's stiffer and is less transparent. Check your push connect dimensions before you buy either OD is what matters.

There's lots of ways to get your distillate in a container but I would just put a GLASS jar under the hose barb.

You really should read the wiki there's a wealth of information there. Some parts are incomplete, a few bits outdated but overall it's the best general reference I've found.This is a good place to start.

[The Baker]

Hi,

Look up Rodent Copper Mesh 12cm x 9m - Buy Online - Pestrol on the web for a pic and details.

Geoff

[Setsumi]

I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

That will not work. Have a look around HD on how to distill. Temprature is not the answer.

[Bubbles2]

Strip it till I get in a spot where I know I am getting close. No.. you strip until you reach the ABV possible to extract before you stop, and that is somewhere between 40 - 25% overall ABV, determine by whatever it is you made..
On avg my wort/wash is usually 1095 start and goes to 1000 on end. ( the total volume is what is important, the SG range only indicate what potential ABV possible..) A little strong so I figure to cut it with H2o to compensate for that element height and give a little cushion. I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

Before attempting to strip a run, read more as you seem to have misunderstood what was stated about the element level.. the element level is just an indicator.. you need to make a ferment that will give you the alcohol and still have ample liquid left that covers the element.. so if you made just a 5 gal, that will probably not be enough, and 7 gal would be preferred until you have done a few runs and develop info as to what amount is safe..

Mars

Yes we are in agreement. Due to being 3 gal to cover element I need to be at the end of my run there. I also have a potmeter to reduce the power. I brought 4 gallons of h20 to 212f/100c on a test run in 20 minutes, cut it back to 1/2 power (tested with meter) to 120v. Does anyone know if that will help with that element when it gets near "out of the wash"? Obviously I would not run it out of the wash due to not diminishing returns. I figured if the element is limping along at say 100v when it is near the end, that should be a good idea. Thanks

[Bubbles2]

Hi,

Look up Rodent Copper Mesh 12cm x 9m - Buy Online - Pestrol on the web for a pic and details.

Geoff

Here in the DEEP South where I am. They sell pure copper scrubbies right next to the sugar on a hanger. . . LOL Now that is a marketing manager I couild drink with. Thanks for the name to search out. The nomenclature is a bit daunting. When I was trying to figure the name of the pump without buying what I already have for flooding (remember Deep South here) I finally figured it was a Fountain Pump. Yet it took a while and I even dug through here to see if anyone mentioned showing their lieyard arm is it?

[Bubbles2]

I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

That will not work. Have a look around HD on how to distill. Temprature is not the answer.

Vague, it does matter tho. IF the fuel comes off at 189 or whatever it is, that is a temp. Nothing happens at 160 that is a temp. The taste test is how I know where I am at on a run BTW. Thanks

[Bubbles2]

There you go, that's a pot still. If you want to try reflux later you've got useful pieces for that too.

I recommend you run it as a pot still a few times before you think about reflux.

Since you're all stainless you want some copper in the system somewhere to reduce sulfites, scrubbers in the riser is a good alternative but real choreboy is hard to find, most nowadays is copper clad steel. Any clean copper will work, wadded up wire, pieces of scrap pipe etc. I have no idea what made yours turn black but replacing it is easy. I made my still from copper pipe so others may have better suggestions on what to use in a stainless system.

The rule here (that I heartily agree with) is product touches no plastic except Teflon. You probably have silicone gaskets in those joints. Here's a current listing on amazon for 2" Teflon ones if your joints are 2".

I use 10x6.5 mm polyurethane tubing for my cooling lines, 10x8 nylon works too but it's stiffer and is less transparent. Check your push connect dimensions before you buy either OD is what matters.

There's lots of ways to get your distillate in a container but I would just put a GLASS jar under the hose barb.

You really should read the wiki there's a wealth of information there. Some parts are incomplete, a few bits outdated but overall it's the best general reference I've found.This is a good place to start.

Thanks for the Links. I have seen that wiki page, it is kinda there. However no mention of an element inside the pot. I think the water circulation should come in from the bottom and out the top, but the design over there is a bit different. Will take a look at them today.

I need a Parrot, would be nice. Until then, taste test as usual.

I have Pex connectors and line for the cooling, I was referring to the product spout. I'll catch it in a 1/2gal Mason till I get a system.

I will have to get some of those teflon gaskets soon.Would not want to be making store bought quality with fluoride water and silicone gaskets and non organic grain... I build my own water from brewing.

I see a lot of tips and tricks about yeast and oyster shells and such. Most grain will bring your mash to 5ph naturally, unless you start with an alkaline water of 8-9, which is not good water.

Yeast like it at about 4.8 ph and will Blow the lid if in an atmosphere like that. I have a Safale 04 I've been using for a year now, I call it a BEAST for my IPA 6-7% Beer. My 05 is a bit tamer. I've been fermenting for close to 5yrs. Be it Wine or Beer.

This whole extract thing is new to me and I understand the dangers and the benefits of a heat source outside of the pot vs inside. Reflux, vs pot. Just the process and little tips like you guys shared that are specific.

Like the wiring help you gave me. Multi Meter Ohm test Duh, now that I think about it. I only have TWO multi-meters on the shelf in shop. I forget who said this, I think it was "You Cannot teach a Man anything; only remind him of what he already knew." LOL

I am not arguing or discounting any help here. Just asking a redundant question that applies to my application. Ie., Submerged Element coupled with lower Volts. Will a 5.5kw fed with 80w via my potmeter in be an issue if the wash is just over the top or a smidge under the top of it? That is something that is speculation and application, not a Wiki find.

That 5.5kw boils fast! My Gas stove to bring my 2.5-3 gallon wort to boil at 35k BTU gas takes 40 minutes there abouts. This 5.5 brought 4 gal to 212 in 20min maybe 18min as mentioned. Might use it for wort boiler too.

[Setsumi]

I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

That will not work. Have a look around HD on how to distill. Temprature is not the answer.

Vague, it does matter tho. IF the fuel comes off at 189 or whatever it is, that is a temp. Nothing happens at 160 that is a temp. The taste test is how I know where I am at on a run BTW. Thanks

I am deliberate vague because it usually goes south quickly if trying to show the futility of temps in stilling.

I see you have a power controller, now that is the way to go. Use your controller to regulate the intensity of your boil and let the tempratures look after themself.

[Bubbles2]

I am hoping that I can keep the temp good to pull more % of alc over h2o

That will not work. Have a look around HD on how to distill. Temprature is not the answer.

Vague, it does matter tho. IF the fuel comes off at 189 or whatever it is, that is a temp. Nothing happens at 160 that is a temp. The taste test is how I know where I am at on a run BTW. Thanks

I am deliberate vague because it usually goes south quickly if trying to show the futility of temps in stilling.

I see you have a power controller, now that is the way to go. Use your controller to regulate the intensity of your boil and let the tempratures look after themself.

I get it, thanks. I know that the more the alc is gone the higher the temp so it is not a slide rule science to say...Temp @ so in so is a must for this ratio. When a finger in the stream to a touch to the tongue will tell you....80p, 60p, 35p and we have feints. Shutter down. Just want to not run that element dry. I could cut my wash with 50% h2o and will only pull a percentage out and just have more feints albeit very watery.

Speaking of Feints. I have a Guava tree and make wine. I have an air still I've used for a couple years. Which kinda give the theory to apply. So I ran 3 liters of Guava wine through it. Since the Dry still does not have an exposed element it is built into the "Tub" I ran it till it was like Zero alc. via taste, morning run. Anyway, i pulled it out and back sweetened it. It made a great no alc wine with the dunder back sweetened. The only wine that tasted like that. I tried others but no good taste. Anyhow, I get ya.

[Bubbles2]

I just thought about it, and I might just use the big r2D2 for stripping and run the 1.7g of strip in the Air still as a spirit run. Not dealing with that small amount in an 8gal still.

[30xs]

Usually you are only going to take about a 1/4 to 1/3 of your starting volume in a stripping run. Charged at 75% volume (6 gallons) even at 10% wash that is .6 gallon at 100%. Even if you strip down to a total collected ABV of 25% that would be 2.4 gallon leaving 3.4 in the pot. If you stripped to 33% total ABV it would be 1.8 gallon collected leaving 4.2 gallon in the pot.

Ferments at a lower starting ABV will be even less volume taken from the boiler. Worst case scenario you have to start closer to 6.5 gallon starting volume in the boiler and a slower starting speed on the strips to avoid puking, which isn’t really a major issue in a stripping run.

[elbono]

Will a 5.5kw fed with 80w via my potmeter in be an issue if the wash is just over the top or a smidge under the top of it?

That 5.5kw boils fast!

I haven't played with how much power they can take in air, if it's not very submerged the boiling will make a environment close to air. If you want to play with that I'd do it with water in the milk can open at the top and have a replacement element ready. I just know they burn out in a heartbeat if you hit them with full power in air.

Your numbers look right. There's a calculator for heat up time on the calculator page it says 5500 watts will take 5 gallons of water to a boil in 20 minutes. Wash will boil in less time. Using gas is a lot less efficient, burn 35000 BTU of fuel, lose some to combustion losses, more to heating up things other than the liquid, adds up fast.

I think your condenser will be the limiting factor as to how much heat you can use, 5.5 kw is a LOT of heat.

[Bubbles2]

Will a 5.5kw fed with 80w via my potmeter in be an issue if the wash is just over the top or a smidge under the top of it?

That 5.5kw boils fast!

I haven't played with how much power they can take in air, if it's not very submerged the boiling will make a environment close to air. If you want to play with that I'd do it with water in the milk can open at the top and have a replacement element ready. I just know they burn out in a heartbeat if you hit them with full power in air.

Your numbers look right. There's a calculator for heat up time on the calculator page it says 5500 watts will take 5 gallons of water to a boil in 20 minutes. Wash will boil in less time. Using gas is a lot less efficient, burn 35000 BTU of fuel, lose some to combustion losses, more to heating up things other than the liquid, adds up fast.

I think your condenser will be the limiting factor as to how much heat you can use, 5.5 kw is a LOT of heat.

Good points, I would not run it dry, and pointing out boiling is indeed akin to being in air. Makes sense. The guy who sold that offered 5.5 or 2.5, he said 2.5 will work for my application just fine. I said do the 5.5 with a Potmeter I can roll it back to half if not more. I used my multimeter (the one you told me to use. . . LOL) and I put the unit up 7/8 albeit okay to 10k (the potmeter) Never run anything full blast, well most things. So I put a mark and measured the V 245 rolled down to where 120 is made a mark, took it to 80v made a mark. I did that test run with water and vinegar (stopped due to no pump to cool) that and I had the condenser wrong. Doh. Just steam came out. Anyhow, just going to take it to 190f roll it back and watch it from there. Having the 5.5 will be a quick wait. Maybe get a good feel for it just using for strip runs and do the spirit run in the air still as mentioned. Not sure if the Voltage will be different with wash compared to water and vinegar?

I have a real good recipe, and found that If I run that air still with 80-90p of strip, when I take it down to about 150 blended leaving the tails at 35p the taste is great. No need to make cuts other than the foreshot and I do an extra ounce on the gallon the dry still runs of heads, it all goes in a jar for starting hardwood for my smoker.

[elbono]

. I put a mark and measured the V 245 rolled down to where 120 is made a mark, took it to 80v made a mark.
just going to take it to 190f roll it back and watch it from there.
Not sure if the Voltage will be different with wash compared to water and vinegar?

Don't forget power is proportional to the voltage squared . 1/2 voltage is 1/4 power

The abv of the wash determines the temp it boils at, as you apply power more alcohol than water boils, the abv goes down, the temp rises. You can't control temp just how fast it rises. Gradual process.

Alcohol takes less energy than water to boil. Water vapor is heavier that alcohol vapor. They'll be very different.

[Bubbles2]

It will take some time getting the hang or getting to my Stripper. I am going to assume that a slow trickle (unbroken not drips) would be a good start.

Do you guys taste it to check the strength to note the alc? OR just know the flow after doing it and watch the volume out vs the volume start? Making sure not go dry on the element and not wanting to just pull the whole wash out albeit alc goes off faster and at a lower temp. I saw that wiki page had a range to keep it in for running the strip.

[Yummyrum]

Water vapor is heavier that alcohol vapor. They'll be very different.

I believe its the other way around . Alcohol has carbon atoms in it making it heavier.

[StillerBoy]

I believe its the other way around . Alcohol has carbon atoms in it making it heavier.

Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is less dense than water, and it's boiling point is lower.

Mars

[Bubbles2]

I thought it was alc is lighter and comes off first. Like gasoline is lighter than water. when I refer to lighter it is less dense. So the same volume of two the alc and gas would be lighter than h2o

[elbono]

My statement comes from the Special consideration for VM section of this page

Water and acetic acid don't form an azeotrope so I think of this situation being a mixture of water vapor and acetic acid vapor so water vapor would come out the condenser leg even if acetic acid didn't.

I'm a noob just a few steps ahead of Bubbles2 so I like it when someone corrects my mistaken ideas, I'm here to learn!

I also think there isn't a definite relationship between liquid density and vapor density. A more dense liquid can have a less dense vapor when compared to another liquid. Is this correct?

My statement of "steam hurts" above comes most recently from the VM cleaning procedure, I tried to cap my CCVM without a glove. Blister time! Don't know how many times I'll need to learn that lesson.