Any advice with this reflux still?

[Jabman]

ordered this and its on way (2" version). Was planning to use lava rocks as column fill. (This can easily turn to pot still and run stripping) I would love to buy plated column with sight glass but are they worth that?

Is this right one to fill column? (pic) OC crushed to right size, pic just to get clear what to buy.

Few notes I made, its short, only 20" with reflux condenser, 12" column and 8" condenser.

Planning to add 20" (is this too short?) extend later, looking to copper pipe extension, but is this waste of money, just buy ss and add some copper mesh somewhere in column? Planning to use lava anyway on that too, bc it was recommended here.

My beer mash kettle can hold 8 gallon, but maximum maybe 6 - 6,5 gallons wash (or 7+ when foaming is zero issue). Have PID (wash temperature) controlled 2000 + 500W heater, but I read PID is no no, so is 2000W too much power in this setup and is 500W too less? I can override PID setting temperature to 284F (of course wash not get that temperature, but PID overrided) but then its 2000W or 500W or 2500W (2000 + 500 combined).

Product I like, sorry want to make is very neutral spirit for drink with soda or seltzer. Have now played with my chinese pot still, but that will not give neutral, but I save that to gin runs etc. when I learn more. Going to shadys sugar shine.

Oh, and directions to how to seal TC connections too would help. This forum has so much info (thanks for that) that its hard to read all, just spend one day after work reading shadys thread and today I think I bought all rest items needed to ferment that, will run it soon.

[Salt Must Flow]

When you say it's 20" ... do you mean that that column below the dephlegmator is 20"? It's my understanding that a general, average height for a packed column's is 21 times the diameter. That would be roughly 42" for a 2" column.

I just use stainless Tri-Clamp segments for my riser and column. I use 3-4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of my riser and column. You can toss copper bits in the boiler if you want copper in the boiler. I personally never added copper bits to my boiler.

There are a lot of topics that recommend the sizes for Lava Rock. I don't recall off the appropriate size for 2" off the top of my head, you you'll find it in a quick search.
EDIT: Here's a link

There is no good way to use a PID controller to control a variable amount of power to a boiler when distilling. PID controllers are nice for brewing and many other uses though. They're basically just a smart thermostat so to speak. You cannot use a PID controller to operate a heating element at 50% power or any varying amount of power. Think of it like using your stove to vary how much heat you apply when you are cooking. You don't use a thermostat, you vary the power input.

I use a 240V 5500W heating element with a variable controller for my 7.5 gal boiler, my 15.5 gal boiler and my larger stripping boiler. Later I added a 2nd 5500W heating element for my stripping boiler. The element's watts determine the MAX amount of power you can input. With a proper controller, you can always turn the power down to however many watts you want. I have a 4 gal boiler I installed a 120V 1400W element in because it's so small and I already had that element.

If you primarily want to make neutral, you would have no need for bubble caps/plates. You want a column full of packing which is MUCH more efficient.

Tri-Clamp connections use a Tri-Clamp gasket and clamp. The gasket goes between the two pieces and the clamp holds them together very well.

[Salt Must Flow]

You'll probably need to work out what to use in order to support the packing within the column. I'd recommend staying away from using mesh/screens. Here's just one post to have a look at.

How do you plan to supply water to your dephlegmator and product condenser? Well water, city water, recycling water, etc...?

[buchrob]

Currently running same set-up with added sight glass containing bubble plate + copper spirals, similar to SPP. Total column height from boiler to base of dephlegmator: 32 inches (~ 85 cm).A little shorter than ideal, but workable. Packing is well-washed 1/4 inch lava rock. Boiler is 1600 watt 120 volt T-500. PCR heat controller. Once it gets up to temperature, 75% power yields a steady flow at +/-90% ABV at about 72 oz (2 litres) /hr. You can go faster/slower and that will govern your quality.

Money on copper better spent: Sight glass filled with 20 ga wire copper spirals is sufficient and makes cleaning a breeze.Search Youtube SPP packing on how to make.

My base column was delivered with an "X" welded in. Pack an SS scrub at the base and it's enough to support the lava. Weight should not be an issue with a short column.

[buchrob]

Additional observations: the tubing and pipe connections are 1/8" Chinese standard and 8 mm tubing, both relatively undersized. The knock-down power of the precondenser will be at its limit. Worth the effort to upgrade to 10 or 12 mm tube and fittings right away. Changing the feed and take-off fittiings to 90 degrees will also avoid kinking. Replacements are inexpensive and readily available on Ali. Considering how inexpensive they are, you might consider ordering a few spares.

[Wildcats]

viewtopic.php?t=68972 I don't know if you have seen and read this thread. But I thought it would be a good place to start. It'll give you some insight on different stills. Hope this helps. Good luck sir.

[Jabman]

Currently running same set-up with added sight glass containing bubble plate + copper spirals, similar to SPP. Total column height from boiler to base of dephlegmator: 32 inches (~ 85 cm).A little shorter than ideal, but workable. Packing is well-washed 1/4 inch lava rock. Boiler is 1600 watt 120 volt T-500. PCR heat controller. Once it gets up to temperature, 75% power yields a steady flow at +/-90% ABV at about 72 oz (2 litres) /hr. You can go faster/slower and that will govern your quality.

Money on copper better spent: Sight glass filled with 20 ga wire copper spirals is sufficient and makes cleaning a breeze.Search Youtube SPP packing on how to make.

My base column was delivered with an "X" welded in. Pack an SS scrub at the base and it's enough to support the lava. Weight should not be an issue with a short column.

Thanks, something like this was on my mind too. You think you could get higher abv with longer column? Im looking as clean as possible vodka. How is yours? I dont have yet extensions (column), but get those later. Budget issues, but glad this shows im on good path at last.

What I see, you not put insulate on your column?

[buchrob]

42 inch column is apparently recommended in one of the posts above. Maybe next year if I re-arrange the garage to make use of more head space. Column was previously insulated. Now doing a test without since I have heard conflicting opinions. A small amount of insulation at least is recommended to provide a safe place to grip while warm.

Because of the height limitation (and general laziness), I usually do stripping runs with the packing left in but no flow to the precondenser. Gives a slight cleaner product on the first pass at the expense of a little extra time.

[haggy]

Jabman,

You said:

Have PID (wash temperature) controlled 2000 + 500W heater, but I read PID is no no, so is 2000W too much power in this setup and is 500W too less? I can override PID setting temperature to 284F (of course wash not get that temperature, but PID overrided) but then its 2000W or 500W or 2500W (2000 + 500 combined).

You will be very limited with only 2000 watts to run. The 2000 watts should run ok with a boiler at an abv less than 25%. And 500 watts is too low to run, unless you want a 16 hour run time. It is best to be able to vary and control the power input.

The 2000 watts high power could lead to flooding if the vapor flow up the column is too high. The lower boiler abv will generate less vapor flow.

So, where am I coming from with these statements? Well, like you and buchrob, I also have bought the same reflux unit and, with a friend, am getting ready to run it when he is available. Sorry, have not run it yet. My first still.

But, I have been doing research on many reflux column posts and making calculations this last year on reflux columns. See my thread "Plate Reflux Columns Operating characteristics" viewtopic.php?p=7732448#p7732448

Although that is about plate columns, I found that packed column characteristics ( like flooding )could be estimated at an equivalent of 14% sieve plate hole area.

So, I have an Excel spreadsheet trying to characterize this 2" packed reflux unit. I think it comes close to reality with plate columns, but needs more verification with packed columns. But you can get in the ballpark with it. I will attach it to this post.

Also, I have done some work trying to understand the defleg shotgun condenser operation. Calculations for that are also in the spreadsheet. The required cooling water flow rate to the defleg is estimated.

You can use it to help guide and plan your runs, trouble shoot, look at many input options, see expected results ( a lot of the reflux column characteristics are displayed ). Higgins has done this on his 4" plate reflux column.

The following is a possible run with your unit. Input data is shown first, then the results characteristics are given.

You can see that the equivalent Plate Hole Velocity is 9.9 ft/sec and the Maximum before flooding is 11 ft/sec. So that is why about 25% abv n the boiler is maximum before too much entrainment and flooding.

I also did some estimates of the cooling water flow rate needed. For 2000 watts power and 25% boiler abv,
Total reflux - 950 ml/min
For 1 L/hr distillate - 570 ml/min
For 2 L/hr distillate - 320 ml/min

These are ball park numbers and will vary greatly with different operating conditions. But might help you planning on what the cw control valves should operate at. For a 10% wash, about 35% of that flow rate is needed.

So, I hope when both you and I get to running our units, we can review the results. And get buchrob's inputs also.

I got my 8 gal boiler and 110V Heater Controller with 2000 watt element at Olympic Distillers. Maybe you should change out your heating element for more flexibility.

haggy

[buchrob]

BTW, lava rock 1/4" packing with home-made copper spirals in the sight glass work nicely. Copper looks tarnished after the second run (a GOOD sign). Thus the concept of isolating them for easy cleaning.

[Jabman]

Thanks for answers, have to look into this deeper really. Got column this week, but still some parts on the way. Seems pretty solid work, but weldings could be really really much better imo. Maybe testing it in pot still mode later on this week. Have at least one TBW ready and other test ferment that im not sure yet did it make it or was it failure.

Absolutely I will change cooling tubings. Also I get extension when I have time to do measurements what really fit my room, not sure 42" is possible. Planning to go with lava stones and now I considering also that sight glass think.

Also I see that 2500W is too much power, 2000W too, so will look options to reduce power, looking SCR voltage regulator, those are pretty cheap on ali. Good or not? And will it work on my kettle. It has low power electronic panel, im pretty sure it doesn't care if voltage drops.

[Salt Must Flow]

I saw your post in this thread. I was about to send you a private message, but figured your thread might be more appropriate.

Subject: VM head design and Butterfly Valves

It ended quickly, with me learning that a butterfly valve is absolutely the wrong valve to use for a VM column. A VM takeoff valve needs a fine resolution of control. I still use a gate valve.

I see. Damn, that looked good.

Is there valve on aliexpress you could recommend? 2" parts would be great?

Because I have modular CM, I planning to change it to VM, I read that its much easier to control. But also I read that direct T-junction could cause that major vapors ends up to to condenser and back to column. Someone told he uses 90 degree pipes on the way, but didn't illustrate that more. Or is this just not true?

viewtopic.php?p=7729926#p7729926

But if that works, I like to keep it maybe simple rather than complex.

To make a VM head, first you'll need a 2" tee. I prefer a tee with a short outlet like this one. That makes the overall length of the vapor takeoff significantly shorter. I used a 2" x 1-1/2" reducer.

2 in Instrument Tee.jpg (14.61 KiB) Viewed 3967 times

I purchased two short 1-1/2" Tri-Clamp ferrules and had them TIG welded to a 1" stainless steel gate valve locally. With just a little shopping, I found this gate valve on eBay. From the gate valve you just need to connect your product condenser.

Many use a normal tee which would make the vapor takeoff protrude outward significantly. Many also use NPT/Tri-Clamp adapters in each end of the gate valve, but that makes those connections significantly longer as well.

My reflux condenser was made from 5/16" copper tubing, a double wound coil 9" long.

[Jabman]

Damn, one of needle valves doesn't work at all, no matter full open or full closed, same output (full). And quick test shows that other is almost same bad (maybe not accurate), have to look it further. One bad can operate, but if second is not accurate, its more bad news (my city water is stable sure). Sended dispute to seller, want some money back.

But anyway, ordered VM stuff to this and going on that path. I like this is modular, so I can tweak it later to LM too, if I like. Also ordered extension, so column width comes near 42" Would liked to see it in CM setup.

I like this consept after all, but if you order this, be aware that this maybe have bad connectors, bad needle valves and I would not give weldings 5 star. So order those stuff before hand and no need to wait another 1, 2 or more weeks. Specially the rexlux condenser needs stable (temperature and pressure) input, which is controlled by needle valve.

TEST your stuff before submit received on ali! You have few days after collecting, then ali automatic set it received and release money to seller.

[buchrob]

Damn, one of needle valves doesn't work at all, no matter full open or full closed, same output (full). And quick test shows that other is almost same bad (maybe not accurate), have to look it further. One bad can operate, but if second is not accurate, its more bad news (my city water is stable sure). Sended dispute to seller, want some money back.

But anyway, ordered VM stuff to this and going on that path. I like this is modular, so I can tweak it later to LM too, if I like. Also ordered extension, so column width comes near 42" Would liked to see it in CM setup.

I like this consept after all, but if you order this, be aware that this maybe have bad connectors, bad needle valves and I would not give weldings 5 star. So order those stuff before hand and no need to wait another 1, 2 or more weeks. Specially the rexlux condenser needs stable (temperature and pressure) input, which is controlled by needle valve.

TEST your stuff before submit received on ali! You have few days after collecting, then ali automatic set it received and release money to seller.

See my post above. Upgrade all fittings and tubing and you "still" have a bargain (sorry 'bout that bad pun). It's really not practical to "return" goods because of the shipping cost.

Order a few extras to have on hand since quality cointrol is not a long suit for on-line orders.

[Salt Must Flow]

I use home well water pressure. For years I've done spirit runs using 1/4" OD Polypropylene tubing and 1/4" brass needle valves for both my reflux condenser and my shotgun product condenser. I've never had a single issue with water flow rate. It's a 3" VM and I normally operate a 2750W for hours straight. I'm not saying you NEED to use this size tubing. I'm only saying 1/4" works perfectly fine and larger tubing is not necessary.

When I used to strip with 5500W, 1/4" OD tubing worked fine too. Only when I added a 2nd 5500W element to stripping with 11000W did I NEED to upgrade the tubing up to 3/8" OD and a 3/8" needle valve. 1/4" OD tubing just isn't capable of providing enough flow to the shotgun condenser even with no valves or restrictions. 3/8" OD tubing was absolutely required. Larger than 3/8" is absolutely not necessary.

[buchrob]

Chinese spec 1/8 thread / 8mm tube fittings are quite constricted internally by the diaphram-shaped grip mechanism. They are originally designed to work with compressed air pressure, not tap water flow. Upgrading to 12mm tubing makes a big difference at very little cost.

Using a pond pump, 12mm needle valve sweet spot is ~ 2 full turns open.

[Jabman]

Got little refund today, so that solved it. Replaced most of lines garden tubing. Tested this setup yesterday and my heater gives way too much power.

Bought SCR parts and soldered them today (and actually ordered also 2 factory made SCR's too). Works like a charm, was little worried if the control panel wakes up. Indeed it had initial problem, have to start higher voltage, but after that can alter lower voltage, so not really issue. Now can go 300 - 1800W linear and 2000 or 2500W max power.

Even tuya switch works on lower voltages and gives watts, amps and voltage info via wifi.

(Yes, have to zip tie those cables sure)

Now waiting those extra parts coming, 2 to 3 weeks hopefully and factory made SCR + amp/voltage panel.

[Jabman]

Must say that Im really really surprised. First good spirit run and got around 94%. Only modifications made, insulation on column, some cooling pipes changed and packing (very tiny) small lava rocks, few ceramic rings on top, because lava rocks compacted in the tube little bit down.

Runned 20 litres around 20-22% low wines. Shame that half came from turbo mash and other half TBW. Have to stick now on proved recipes.

Cannot wait the extension comes. I planning to put ceramic rings on that pipe (same as photo), so lava on bottom 20" and rings top 20"

[Wildcats]

As long as you're happy with it and you enjoy the end result, that's all that matters. Congratulations man.

[buchrob]

You're welcome to try, but the rings may be a downgrade in performance. Far less surface area/volume. Added a 6 inch extension yesterday, column packed with 2 s/s scrubbies (to keep the lava from falling out), rest lava rock like yours. Home-made copper SPP in sight glass. Ran just under azeo, spirit run diluted to 30%. Not the fastest, but definitely the cleanest ever.

[Jabman]

You're welcome to try, but the rings may be a downgrade in performance. Far less surface area/volume. Added a 6 inch extension yesterday, column packed with 2 s/s scrubbies (to keep the lava from falling out), rest lava rock like yours. Home-made copper SPP in sight glass. Ran just under azeo, spirit run diluted to 30%. Not the fastest, but definitely the cleanest ever.

Have to give it a shot as I bought those all ready, should fit nicely in 20" column and this comes top of lava rock filled column. Can that really be downgrade? Bottom 20" lava rocks and top 20" rings, total column width 40". (mixed) In photo have only 20", extension coming later.

If that not work, I have plenty of those lava rocks, big bag cost few bucks and I used like 10%, so 90% left.

[Salt Must Flow]

EDIT: I just realized that you ran it with the short column and haven't extended it yet. That's pretty darn good performance with a short column. You'll probably easily get 95%+ ABV with the extension.

Do you recall what power were you running at and your take-off rate during hearts? If you take-off too fast then it will cause the % ABV to drop off. Too low of power combined with too fast of a take-off rate will cause the same. Even too much power. It's easy to find the sweet spot though.

If that Lava Rock is too small then it runs the risk of flooding or just partially flooding and your % ABV drops due to reflux being held up in the column. You can hear it making a 'sizzling' or 'fizzing' sound when you put your ear to the column. I bought a cheap Stethoscope to make it easier to hear. You can pinpoint exactly where it's 'sizzling' within the column by listening close. You won't hear it at the top if it's sizzling lower down the column. It's worth listening for the next time you run it.

Wow, those ceramic rings are enormous. Way over-sized. I doubt they would work well at all. If you want to see for yourself, just fill the column with that stuff and see how it works. If it doesn't work well by itself, it won't help you by replacing Lava Rock with it, that's for sure.

[Jabman]

EDIT: I just realized that you ran it with the short column and haven't extended it yet. That's pretty darn good performance with a short column. You'll probably easily get 95%+ ABV with the extension.

I hope so too. I dont know how accurate my hydrometer is, it shows 95% and temp corrected around 94% But it those tiny versions 3 piece set, at least shop booze it measured exactly correct.

I runned 900-950W power and I think rate was like 1,1 - 1,2 liter / hour

yeah, planning to put those rings on extension, but you know china post, nothing comes in week. Have to just wait, but not rush any way, no have any wash ready. Have to give a shot shadys sugar wash and test what kind of vodka it gives.

[Jabman]

Got the VM parts and extension this week. Cannot wait to get test run, but have some cooling issues still to solve. And need to get more safety to this. Planning to add temperature control to condenser cool end and if temperature raises too much, it will cut power automatic.

Also need to insulate column too. This part also have to think little. Do I want to brake down the pieces or not and why I would like to do that? That affects, how I fill the column. If not need brake down, I just fill the column and that's it etc.

The attachment valve in column.png is no longer available

[greggn]

If that Lava Rock is too small then it runs the risk of flooding or just partially flooding and your % ABV drops due to reflux being held up in the column. You can hear it making a 'sizzling' or 'fizzing' sound when you put your ear to the column.

Don't be like me ... only put your ear *near* the column.

[MooseMan]

Also need to insulate column too. This part also have to think little. Do I want to brake down the pieces or not and why I would like to do that? That affects, how I fill the column. If not need brake down, I just fill the column and that's it etc.

Column insulation can just stay on once you've attached it.

Mine is 50" of copper, with real thick insulation on, and I just take the column on and off with the insulation taped in place top and bottom, but the flanges hold it there anyway.

The thick insulation stays totally cold on the outside.

[The Baker]

If that Lava Rock is too small then it runs the risk of flooding or just partially flooding and your % ABV drops due to reflux being held up in the column. You can hear it making a 'sizzling' or 'fizzing' sound when you put your ear to the column.

Don't be like me ... only put your ear *near* the column.

Doctors many years ago listened for body sounds through a light wooden tube...

Geoff

[Jabman]

Column insulation can just stay on once you've attached it.

Just ment if I ever need to separate the pipes, because this is two pieces column. But anyway, I filled it from top, so now it's maybe difficult to do cleanly. So, have to keep them together.

[Jabman]

Runned today and it gave 95%, without much tuning. Just toss in (made around 20% mix) stuff and let it run. I love how easy VM is to operate. No need to check or tweak needle valves etc. Just open valve and let it drip. I took around 1 - 1,2 liter/per hour and using power around 1200W

Shame that the low wines was from turbo patch and second one was ferment that either I stripped it too fast or it was bad from beginning. Pretty cardboard smell it had.

Because I think some one mentioned here magnetic stirrer and AC, I tought why not and now it's rolling on. Diluted 0,7 liters (95%) to 40%, and added some active carbon and let it sit (stirr) say 1 or 2 days? And yes, this was my first and last turbo experiment. It didn't even clear good in few days. Have some sss coming, 1 just soon finish and second maybe weekend.

And big thanks to salt must flow giving ideas and pieces what to get. And others too.

[Poitín Sue]

Great thread jabman. I've followed you and bought the same kit. Hopefully I'll run it as a pot soon.
I seems excellent value.