Fermenting with DADY instead of turbo

[Kizzerd]

I've always used Turbo whiskey yeast in the past and have never had any issues. But I've decided to get away from turbo and use DADY because I've heard and read that you get a much smoother product. But I am not getting a vigorous fermentation like I usually would with Turbo. I'm used to seeing lots and lots of bubbles in my airlock. The fermenter I'm using is new put I blew in the air lock hole in the lid and didn't have any leaks. The air just blew back at me through the whole. I also made sure I had the correct amount of water in the airlock. There is visible moisture in the air lock and bucket, my entire bedroom is palpable with the fermentation smell but no bubbles. I used 6 gallons of water, about 12 or 13 lbs of sugar and a tablespoon and a teaspoon of Red Star DADY. After a few days I wasn't noticing much action and the temperature was a tad low. So I added fermax yeast nutrient and another half tablespoon of yeast. I also set up an electric heater with thermostat. After a day or so, the fish tank sticker thermometer on the outside of the fermenter read 78 to 80 degrees and I could smell the fermentation taking place. But still no bubbles. It has been a total of 14 days since I started the mash. I plan on distilling tomorrow. But does anyone know what is going on with my ferment? Does DADY just not have as vigorous of a ferment as Turbo? Or does my recipe need some change? Or any other ideas?

[still_stirrin]

A sugar wash....without nutrients. I’d expect activity to be slow. Plus, your room temperature is on the low end of the scale for good yeast activity. And finally, have you checked the pH? I bet it is low (less than 4.0) already.

The sugar wash recipes in the Tried & True forum all have nutrients added. Sugar alone does not have adequate minerals to feed the yeast metabolism even though the sugar provides the fermentable material. Fermax is a nutrient and should help, but I suspect that you added it too late in the cycle. Or, you may have not added enough. I would add nutrients to the brew pot when you melt the sugar.

If you raise the ambient temperature to 85*F, it will help activity as well. In fact, yeast is very happy at body temperature (98.6*F) although it will work at lower temperatures. The ferment temperature can be used to modulate activity and typically a slow steady ferment produces less esters and off flavors. A vigorous ferment doesn’t always produce the best wash. So, warm your fermenter up and it will help.

Finally, sugar washes can be notorious for production of acid in the fermenter. This “crash” of the pH can be countered with the addition of a buffer like calcium carbonate. It is best to add the shells 24 hours after the start of yeast activity. The shells moderate the ferment pH. But if the pH is already too low causing the yeast to stall, add some calcium hydroxide (slaked lime or pickling lime) to the ferment. It is a much stronger base and will quickly raise the pH.

These things are all in play in a sugar wash, so attention to them should help your ferments to be quick to attenuate.

Question....how much sugar did you use in what volume of water? If you try to push the potential alcohol too high (above 10%ABV), the high sugar content will make the environment very harsh for the yeast especially if you don’t properly rehydrate the dry yeast to pitch the ferment. The high sugar concentration causes the cells to rupture due to osmotic pressure on the yeast cells...they literally explode!

I think your wash will finish if given enough time. You could wait on it or tend to these ferment conditions. Good luck.
ss

[StillerBoy]

+ 1 on the Best advise given.. hopefully it will be comprehended..

Mars

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Also, have you tried measuring the gravity of your wash to see if the yeasts are even working and how fast?

+1 for using less sugar.
I dont do a lot of sugar washes, but I never do more than 1.5lbs of sugar per gallon of water. Greed will get you nowhere in this hobby, unless you want to be like those guys on the moonshiner TV drama.

[Kizzerd]

I really appreciate all the information and advice guys! I've never had these problems with Turbos but I guess that's because it has all the nutrients in there already.

[fizzix]

Turbo is just about fool-proof because of all its over-indulgent, excessive ingredients.
There's nothing wrong with that if you like it, but you will get an off-tasting product
compared to a crafted and measured non-turbo recipe. I look at it like a homemade gourmet
pizza as opposed to a frozen one from the grocery store.

I'm trying hard not to make this out as a snobbish thing. It's just a fact, and it does take an attention to details
like temperature, nutrients, pH buffering, etc., but the result is a better product.

The choice is all yours! Best of luck to whichever road you choose.

[Kizzerd]

A sugar wash....without nutrients. I’d expect activity to be slow. Plus, your room temperature is on the low end of the scale for good yeast activity. And finally, have you checked the pH? I bet it is low (less than 4.0) already.

The sugar wash recipes in the Tried & True forum all have nutrients added. Sugar alone does not have adequate minerals to feed the yeast metabolism even though the sugar provides the fermentable material. Fermax is a nutrient and should help, but I suspect that you added it too late in the cycle. Or, you may have not added enough. I would add nutrients to the brew pot when you melt the sugar.

If you raise the ambient temperature to 85*F, it will help activity as well. In fact, yeast is very happy at body temperature (98.6*F) although it will work at lower temperatures. The ferment temperature can be used to modulate activity and typically a slow steady ferment produces less esters and off flavors. A vigorous ferment doesn’t always produce the best wash. So, warm your fermenter up and it will help.

Finally, sugar washes can be notorious for production of acid in the fermenter. This “crash” of the pH can be countered with the addition of a buffer like calcium carbonate. It is best to add the shells 24 hours after the start of yeast activity. The shells moderate the ferment pH. But if the pH is already too low causing the yeast to stall, add some calcium hydroxide (slaked lime or pickling lime) to the ferment. It is a much stronger base and will quickly raise the pH.

These things are all in play in a sugar wash, so attention to them should help your ferments to be quick to attenuate.

Question....how much sugar did you use in what volume of water? If you try to push the potential alcohol too high (above 10%ABV), the high sugar content will make the environment very harsh for the yeast especially if you don’t properly rehydrate the dry yeast to pitch the ferment. The high sugar concentration causes the cells to rupture due to osmotic pressure on the yeast cells...they literally explode!

I think your wash will finish if given enough time. You could wait on it or tend to these ferment conditions. Good luck.
ss

I used 6 gallons of distilled water and approximately 12-13 pounds of sugar. Since I made the mash, I've read that it's not good to used distilled water but I never had any issues in the past. Just don't want to use tap water since I live in town now and want to avoid the chemicals in the water. I appreciate all your insight. Like I said, this is my first time using non turbo yeast and I can use all the advice I can get. Been distilling for 6 years or so, a few times a year. But I've been inactive for about 2 years and my "moonshine mentor" passed on shortly after the last time I ran my still. So I don't have anyone to consult with my issues anymore.

[pope]

There’s a lot going on in a ferment, following a tried and true allows you to have success at the beginning of the hobby while still learning what is happening along the way. Striking out on your own can lead to frustrations so best to ease into it, cuts and operating the still are tricky enough starting out without anything else to worry about.

[StillerBoy]

Been distilling for 6 years or so, a few times a year. But I've been inactive for about 2 years

So where are your notes.. notes become a manual of instructions and directions..

Mars

[Kizzerd]

I had a notebook with my notes but lost it during a move. I didn't have much when it came to my notes though. The majority of it was mixing recipes. All I've ever used was turbo yeast, sugar and water. With 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of water and the packet of turbo yeast. Not many notes needed there. Now that I'm getting away from the turbo, I'll start keeping better notes.

[MtRainier]

Distilled water will have no buffers and any change in acidity will cause huge swings in pH.

I'd recommend visiting a Tractor Supply or other feed store to get some crushed oysters (they're used to feed chickens). Give em a rinse and toss them in to your sugar wash like what SS said. Low pH will cause them to dissolve and they'll keep the pH up somewhat.

I'd also recommend taking a look at Shady's Sugar Shine. It's pretty much the easiest sugar wash recipe and it works well. I documented my experience with it as best I could here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=70585#p7542467

[Canuckwoods]

I use DADY exclusively and never have problems, I also recommend Shady's Sugar Shine it turns out great.

[cayars]

I had a notebook with my notes but lost it during a move. I didn't have much when it came to my notes though. The majority of it was mixing recipes. All I've ever used was turbo yeast, sugar and water. With 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of water and the packet of turbo yeast. Not many notes needed there. Now that I'm getting away from the turbo, I'll start keeping better notes.

How about an update?
Did it finish fermenting? Did you do anything to help correct the slow ferment?
What your current or finished SG?

[Kizzerd]

I added the fermax yeast nutrient and another half tablespoon of yeast and got the temperature up to 78/80 degrees farenheit. Never did get a whole lot of bubbles in the fermenter or air lock. I was on a time schedule so I already ran it. Didn't get as much out of it as I hoped bit still got some good strong hooch. About a gallon and and a half of 75-85% ABV. This was definitely a learning experience getting away from turbo yeast.. I'm going to try one of the tried and true sugar recipes and get some upgraded fermenting tools in a couple weeks. Also going to build an insulated box for my fermenter to sit in and use fish tank heaters to maintain a steady temperature during ferment. I've read people saying that distillers yeast likes a higher temperature. I'm used to keeping it at 78 degrees if possible. What are everyone's thoughts for that since I'll really be able to dial it in with the subversion heater. 85?

[cayars]

Best advice is to lookup the specific temp ranges of any yeast you use, simple as that.

[StillerBoy]

Best advice is to lookup the specific temp ranges of any yeast you use, simple as that.

That plus.. and if using bakers yeast, pitching it around the 95*F range, and letting it work it way down to 85*F, then maintaining that temp level, works well for that yeast, providing the necessary ingredients have been added, and the Ph is watched at the 6th hr mark and 12 hr mark..

Similarly, when working with other such as ale or wine yeasts, pitch at the top of the temp range of yeast used, and let work down to it's mid range temp, and maintain the temp there..

That's my protocol for temp levels..

Mars

[stevedasleeve]

Best advice is to lookup the specific temp ranges of any yeast you use, simple as that.

What is the temp range for DADY, or rather what is the optimal temp? All I have found is “up to 90°F“

[cayars]

According to Fermentis/Red Star DADY spec sheet 86 to 89.6f (30C – 32C)

[stevedasleeve]

Thanks. I have temp control so I can dial in that temperature - 88. Cheers!

[Rrmuf]

Aha.... I was keeping mine a bit too cold.

[xcaret]

It seems to me that the "smell of fermentation" that fills your room is coming from an air leak somewhere .
The same reason you do not smell the ammonia that is in your refridgerator cooling system ,it is a closed ( sealed ) system.
The law of physics would prohibit a smell coming out of a sealed system.
You better stretch a condom or something similar over the neck of your fermentaion container and see if it fills up .

[kpex72]

Airlocks can lie. Use a hydrometer and check ph. There is great advice above.

[The Baker]

The reason people do not recommend turbo yeast is apparently, an excessive amount of nutrients.
Fair enough.
So if you already HAVE some turbo, maybe throw a teaspoon or so in your regular wash with your regular yeast,
the nutrients will not be excessive and may help?

Geoff

[Rrmuf]

The reason people do not recommend turbo yeast is apparently, an excessive amount of nutrients.
Fair enough.
So if you already HAVE some turbo, maybe throw a teaspoon or so in your regular wash with your regular yeast,
the nutrients will not be excessive and may help?

Geoff

... Not a bad idea!

[Lowlyric]

I know this is a old thread but maybe someone will educate me.
I tried dady with no success so I used turbo just to get my first run done. So if you have to add nutrients to dady yeast and turbo comes with nutrients whats the difference. I'm going for quality could Care less about quantity.
Thanks Patrick.

[Soft batch]

"Tried with no success" - what recipe did you try? Did you use a Tried + True recipe? Several sugar wash recipes depending on what you are trying to makeviewforum.php?f=14

All yeast need nutrients, sugar doesn't provide any. Turbo provides nutrients to make it "go fast", The T&T have been developed to make something drinkable.
Suggestion - make a T&T batch and compare the results, judge for yourself. 

[Dougmatt]

I know this is a old thread but maybe someone will educate me.
I tried dady with no success so I used turbo just to get my first run done. So if you have to add nutrients to dady yeast and turbo comes with nutrients whats the difference. I'm going for quality could Care less about quantity.
Thanks Patrick.

I have never used turbo, so I can’t comment on it beyond what everyone says here in that it makes a really poor product.

I do however use DADY every so often. I don’t know where you failed, but I seldom add extra nutrients as I build a wash that doesn’t need more of them. Most of the tried and true on here add nutrients which are enough to finish without a crash. Even those are often more than what is needed, but they are built for auto-pilot. If “no success” means your ferment didn’t start, that is likely not due to nutrients at all. Most likely culprit there is temperature or bad yeast, but who knows cause you didn’t provide details,

Finally if quality is what you are after, then try to pick the right yeast for the wash / mash you are planning.

[higgins]

...
use fish tank heaters to maintain a steady temperature during ferment
...

Careful using immersion heaters. Take a look at this topic.