amylase questions

[gage862004]

I am trying to wrap my head around the difference between alpha amylase (amylase), beta amylase and glucoamylase. This is my understanding from research I have done.

Alpha amylase better known as amylase breaks down starches to large chain un fermentable sugars in the 140F range. Is this correct?

This is where I become confused. Both beta amylase and glucoamylase further break down the chains into fermentable sugars in the 100F range? Is this correct?

What is the difference between beta and glucoamylase? Are the two one and the same or different enzymes?

The reason I ask is I am attempting my hand at some potato vodka and want to accomplish saccharification without the use of malts. I am aware that many users have attempted potato's with little success. I am also aware the costs are higher and yields are lower than sugar. I want to produce a true potato vodka with no supplementation of sugar.

The final question would be would glucoamylase or beta amylase be more efficient in breaking down the larger chain sugars into fermentables?

Thanks in advance, and happy new year!

[DAD300]

You've got it right and Beta and Gluco are achieving the same thing...long grain sugar to shorter.

Yeast will eat the sugar made with just Alpha, just not as fast or efficiently.

Malted grain will also turn cooked starch to sugar...the process is more time consuming than buying the packaged amylase.

And there are molds (koji, Aspergillus niger) that will accomplish the same thing.

[kaziel]

I'm doing potato vodka with enzymes. Alpha will cut long chain to shorter branches, some time so "short" that yeast can turn them into alcohol but that happens in sevral % of break-downs. Beta or "gluco" will chop those branches to small twigs that can be fermented by yeast. I'm buying my liquid enzymes on-line with manual in what temps use them. Out here not many use malt, most of shiners in Poland use enzymes. In addition to alpha and beta I'm using 3rd one to break down other non starch stuff it really makes difference if you use immersion electric heating.

[gage862004]

Thanks for the reply guys! I think that clears up all my questions. kaziel if you don't mind me asking what do you use for your final enzyme? Also if you have any tips on mashing with potatoes I would gladly listen. "Without giving away your secrets of course." I'm going into this with the small amount of info that I could find. Experimenting is part of the fun but any help is welcome.

I will be shooting for a lightly flavored russet potato vodka. I plan on boiling the potatoes for 10-15 minutes to soften them. I've found the skins nearly fall off at this time and speed up the removal. I then plan on running the potatoes through my meat grinder as to skip the physical mashing of the potatoes. I plan on mixing with water until I basically get a thick almost viscous soup. Then add alpha at required temp. Then add beta or gluco after cooling to required temp. Then pitch distillers yeast.

If there are any flaws in this plan? please let me know.

thanks in advance!

[MitchyBourbon]

The two main enzymes active during a mash containing malted grains are alpha and beta amylase.  Alpha amylase, which is most active in the 154-167F/68-75C range, creates longer sugar chains that are less fermentable, resulting in a mash with more less-fermentable sugars.  Beta amylase, which is most active between 130-150F/54-65 C trims off single maltose sugar units that are more fermentable.  This results in a more complete fermentation (higher attenuation).

Both enzymes work to break longer sugar chains into smaller maltose units that yeast can ferment.  Alpha amylase is very flexible as it can break sugars chains up at almost any point, and is useful for creating shorter chains for beta amylase to work on.  Beta amylase, in contrast, breaks off single highly fermentable maltose units of sugar, but can only work from the ends of the sugar chain.  As a result beta amylase is better at creating single molecule maltose sugars that yeast loves, but it takes longer as it works only from the ends of the molecule.  The two enzymes work best when applied in combination and since we as distillers favor a more fermentable mash we usually mash in the lower-middle temperature range around 148F/64C.

[evanwiley]

Try this....
Use your food processor or Juicer to process or juice fresh potatoes, you don't need the pulp you just need the starch.

I get a 2- 25kg bag of Potatoes (High Starch) and juice them and you have pure starch to work with.
then heat to 154 and add Alpha amylase let rest off temp for 1 day to convert sugars. Use the iodine test to verify starch has converted to sugar, should be red.

Based on the Mitchy post above I have a few more things to try, I have never tried the Beta Amylase.

Here are some videos to help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke7dFcspUi4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow - Best Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3O8bsqi8vc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow - Another example

Potato mash is not expensive at all in my opinion Corn Sugar comes to $6.33 per litre of Vodka and Potato for me is $10.13 per litre. Retail vodka is $45.55 per 1.75 litre. Its cheap!!! now for flavour, my taste buds like the Potato/Grains better than pure potato but i am still trying pure potato from time to time.

Also 2 bags of potatoes juiced is needed for my batches due to not knowing the age of the potatoes and amount of starch you will get, which = the amount of sugar you don't know what you will get. Fresher is better! (Farmers Markets are great) Doing a batch this large allows me to alter the sugar content. I have found its easier to use grain to help convert potato starch to sugar. Amylase needs perfect temperature. Make sure you follow the directions on the package (if you don't buy the same brand every time then you need to read the instruction on each package. Also don't buy large quantities if you not going to use it all right away.

Now if anyone has a tip on the best potatoes to use I would love to know.

[evanwiley]

Just to share these are the recipes that I used starting out and have been refining, these are great: (I found that the Juicer option is much better for me)

Potato Vodka
To ferment, distill and make Potato vodka is harder than most people think and you need a bit of experience to get them right.
Books make it sound so easy because they tend to simpIify the process and take for granted that you have a full understanding and experience of all the steps involved quite often leaving out some of the elementary steps.

Recipe 1:
What you will do is what is called a Stepped Infusion Mash. This is where you start the saccharification process at a low temperature and then move it up in steps, halting for a certain time period at each step to give each enzyme time to break down as much as they can at each stage.

If you have made beer in the past using an all-grain mash you will understand the process.

Cook your potatoes (12kg) so they are still stiff - about 12- 15 minutes at reasonable heat. Up to 20 minutes at low heat. Note they should still be a bit undercooked, definitely not soft, mushy, or floury. Mash the potatoes and let cool down to room temp.

Add coarsely milled malted barley (2kg with milled particles mostly about 1mm to 2mm in size. Definitely not too fine.).

Cover with sufficient water (topp up mash to 20 litres) and bring to 45 C. Hold 15 minutes stirring regularly.
Bring up to 133 F (56 C). Hold 15 minutes etc.
Bring up to 149 F (65 C). Hold 15 minutes stirring constantly.
Bring up to 158 F (70 C). Hold 15 minutes stirring constantly.

All up this makes 60 minutes which should suffice for the small batch.

Once virtually all the starch is liquified and broken down to simple sugars halt the enzymatic process by raising the temp to 80 C (Mashing Out) and then drop it back as quickly (use coolant if necessary) as possible to between 60 C and 50 C so the sugars dont get scorched or burnt.

Cool down further to 24 C, establish an SG of 1.060 (min) to 1.090 (max = ideal) and begin fermentation.

Ferment until SG < 1.00

Distilling:
For potatoe vodka: Distill to achieve alcohol levels purer than 90% and only trace amounts of potatoe flavours. Cut back with distilled water to 43%. Let air for 24 hours before bottling.

For potatoe mampoer: Distill to between 45% and 75% (according to taste) The lower the alcohol % the more intense the potatoe character will be. Do not double distill as it will result in lower flavour.

For both mampoer and vodka: Aging for 3-12 weeks in glass with corked tops will improve smoothness/mouthfeel.

RECIPE 2:
Ingredients:
20-25kg potatoes
1kg of barley, malted and gristed
50-100g of good Turbo Yeast.
Some fresh water
Equipment needed:
30 litre beer fermenter
A large (30-50litre) kettle
A meat grinder (for mashing the potatoes)
A large scoop or a "wash paddle"
A hotplate with a thermostat

Method:
Clean all the dirt from the potatoes, (don't bother to peel them, i did not notice any difference in favour either way)
Put the potatoes in to kettle and cover them with water, bring to boil. Cook until the first ones break down -this should take about 1hr. In meanwhile hydrate the yeast and mix 1kg malt and 2litre of water.
Pour the water out from the kettle. Mash the potatoes in the grinder while they are hot. (If done right the mash looks like thick porridge.)
Put the mash to kettle (and adjust the hotplates temperature to 60C). Add 1/3 of the malt to the kettle and stir well. Wait until the temperature has dropt to 55C. Add the rest of the hydrated malt and stir in well. Let sit there for about 2 hours. Stir often. (If done right the wash should have turned flowing.)
Turn the hotplate off. Put the kettle in somewhere cool. When the temperature has dropped down to 25C pour to fermenter and add yeast (no nutrients needed). First carbon dioxide bubbles should rise after couple of hours; main fermenting takes about two days, ready for distilling in four days -if you have done everything as written. Result will be a 7-12vol% mash, depending the starch level of potatoes.
Once the mash has fermented dry, distill as in Recipe 1.

[gage862004]

Thanks for the links and advice evanwiley and everyone else also! I have 12 gallons of potato mash finishing right now.

I will post back with my results and yields after I strip it.

Does anyone have any advice on how to get accurate hydrometer readings with potatoes? Since my mash was quite thick I decided to strain the liquid, measure then correct it to 1.06SG. was this proper procedure or are there other ways of going about it?

[BoomTown]

Thanks for the links and advice evanwiley and everyone else also! I have 12 gallons of potato mash finishing right now.

I will post back with my results and yields after I strip it.

Does anyone have any advice on how to get accurate hydrometer readings with potatoes? Since my mash was quite thick I decided to strain the liquid, measure then correct it to 1.06SG. was this proper procedure or are there other ways of going about it?

Watching with a growing interest. I've been doing AG whiskeys but am curious as to how this works out, and how it will taste, compared to comercial vodka.

[gage862004]

Well.... I screwed up and burned the mash when I was stripping it. I am using propane and had the temp far to high. I am used to sugar washes that don't burn and was not thinking. Oh well I will whip up another batch and try again at a lower heat next time. Anyone have some tips on removing charred potato from the bottom of a keg? I have heard of people using stainless steel chains and rolling them around inside.

[BoomTown]

Just to share these are the recipes that I used starting out and have been refining, these are great: (I found that the Juicer option is much better for me)

Potato Vodka
To ferment, distill and make Potato vodka is harder than most people think and you need a bit of experience to get them right.

This looks interesting, but I don't see any way to screen out the solids and just distill the mashed beer. Am I missing something? How would you distill this in a simple pot still without scorching the potato 'batter', or does is strain out some where?

Boom

[Moon_Moon]

Whenever I have thick mash i use a small press to get all the liquid out. And then there is also a copper device I've inherited from my grandad that I put in in case there are still some particulates in the mash im cooking. Will trybto post pic when im not on phone.

[dragon9874]

great post, awesome replies! 10 years later (exactly 1 month shy), and still relevant...

thx gage, dad, evan & all the rest!!
\m/_(^^,)

[Moon_Moon]

Sorry about the pics. It seems im too stupid to upload them from hd.