Need some yeast advice

[Celticway]

Allright fellas, need some advice.

I’m making a 1.093 wash with corn and sugar. 20 gallons.

I got some Daddy yeast and some Fermax

Or some turbo yeast.

What do you suggest to use, how much, and what method.

Third wash so as much info and help is greatly appreciated.

[bilgriss]

For corn and sugar, I'd head over here: viewtopic.php?t=725

You'll find answers to your yeast questions as well as a proven recipe that will produce a fine product.

[NZChris]

I suggest that you don't make a 1.093 wash then ask us how to fix it when it's not up to your expectations.

[shadylane]

Never Turbo.
DADY, Fermax and a SG of 1.060ish

[Saltbush Bill]

Were / how did you come up with the idea for this ferment ?
Would it not be easier to follow a tried and proven recipe like UJSSM ? much easier than blundering around trying to make things work that are unproven or wont work due to wrong amounts and types of ingredients.

[Celticway]

Were / how did you come up with the idea for this ferment ?
Would it not be easier to follow a tried and proven recipe like UJSSM ? much easier than blundering around trying to make things work that are unproven or wont work due to wrong amounts and types of ingredients.

I am a 30 year beer brewer so I’m used to creating all my own recipes. That being said not everything translate into distilling so I will take that under advisement.

[Celticway]

Were / how did you come up with the idea for this ferment ?
Would it not be easier to follow a tried and proven recipe like UJSSM ? much easier than blundering around trying to make things work that are unproven or wont work due to wrong amounts and types of ingredients.

In the beer world, I am able to make really good beers in the 11-12% range such as Belgian Trippels, using beer yeast. So I didn’t think it would be a problem with the higher tolerant distillers yeast? But I’m learning the differences.

[Saltbush Bill]

That being said not everything translate into distilling

Your right about that , there are quite a few differences.
Beer brewing experience can be a help and at the same time a hindrance in distilling it seems to me. Ive watched many beer brewers come and go in this hobby , some stick it out , some don't.
Once you start playing around with different grains you will find that most of them are nowhere near as "user friendly" as malted barley is.
Its very easy to end up with a pot full of very uncooperative gluey porridge when mashing some other grains.
As for yeasts very few experienced distillers will recommend usingTurbo Yeast.......use anything but imo.
As stated before , when starting out its easier to stick to tried and proven recipes , once you have that sorted out , by all means try experimenting with your own.
I'm sure the same advice must apply when first starting out in beer making.

[quadra]

As a long time beer maker I am sure you have seen lots of those guys that get into the hobby with the sole intention of brewing a beer with the highest possible alcohol level they can?.... and you probably have warned them about the congeners created in those type of fermentation. Stressed yeast and long fermentation are not what you want.

[Mr_Beer]

I am a relative newbie and my notions may just confuse you. That said, they are offered from the perspective of someone who wanted to determine the correct amount of yeast, whether to use a starter, and related questions.

My fermentation vessels are 20 gallon HDPE containers and the output (grain and liquid) of a 20 gallon SS pot to start the mash. Fermentation on is done on grain. Obviously amount of material in the fermentation vessel and the OG will determine yeast addition amounts.

At that size of fermentation I whined about the cost of yeast. Concomitant with that activity I decided to do research and of course develop some software that embodied the results of that research. As I went down that path it was obvious that cell count versus OG and yeast age were dominant characteristics for most strains of yeast. Having previously done ‘normal’ beer size batches of wort/must the concept of a starter had been avoided. Now with larger sized batches a starter was either needed or some other process. The literature at this point is not precise but there are several starter size calculators available and they all match fairly closely.

The results are surprising -- to maintain the ‘recommended’ cell count metric the size of the starter solution was fairly significant – almost 12L for a 75L batch or almost 16%. And that prompted my question regarding size.

What surprised me was the answer on the BeerSmith web site, the BeerSmith yeast tool and questions to Brad. The results are very pragmatic and typical engineering type response. Based on the cost of the starter and the time and effort involved versus the ‘minor’ cost of additional dry yeast the notion was that additional yeast could accomplish the same result from a fermentation standpoint. Those results could not be extrapolated to the use of liquid yeast because of its higher cost, low cell count amounts and shorter shelf life. In those cases, a starter might be useful.

So, back to the basics again. Buy yeast in bulk and use appropriate amounts as calculated. That is the process I now use as I try to avoid the yeast starter process.

As an example, for a recent 18 gallon ferment I used 60 grams of US-05 (six packet equivalents) and 70 grams of Go-Ferm. Go-Ferm may not be needed but I always use it to reduce the lag time for higher gravity mashes – a habit and possibly not a necessity. And I pop in a ground up vitamin B tablet as well.

As an editorial comment, your OG seems high for some yeasts. Be sure to check the tolerance of any yeast you intend to use.

I store the yeast in a sealed mason jar with a light proof cover (paper bags) in the refrigerator and it is good for up to two years. The cost per gram is about 40% the cost of packets.

This is a long answer and I apologize for the length.

[bilgriss]

The "tolerance" measure of a yeast is what they are capable of fermenting. It's not a measure of whether it will produce a good flavor at that max threshold. That difference is where you want to focus your understanding. There's a reason none of the tried and true recipes for distillation are targeting high gravity, and it's not just yeast choice.

[Celticway]

I am a relative newbie and my notions may just confuse you. That said, they are offered from the perspective of someone who wanted to determine the correct amount of yeast, whether to use a starter, and related questions.

My fermentation vessels are 20 gallon HDPE containers and the output (grain and liquid) of a 20 gallon SS pot to start the mash. Fermentation on is done on grain. Obviously amount of material in the fermentation vessel and the OG will determine yeast addition amounts.

At that size of fermentation I whined about the cost of yeast. Concomitant with that activity I decided to do research and of course develop some software that embodied the results of that research. As I went down that path it was obvious that cell count versus OG and yeast age were dominant characteristics for most strains of yeast. Having previously done ‘normal’ beer size batches of wort/must the concept of a starter had been avoided. Now with larger sized batches a starter was either needed or some other process. The literature at this point is not precise but there are several starter size calculators available and they all match fairly closely.

The results are surprising -- to maintain the ‘recommended’ cell count metric the size of the starter solution was fairly significant – almost 12L for a 75L batch or almost 16%. And that prompted my question regarding size.

What surprised me was the answer on the BeerSmith web site, the BeerSmith yeast tool and questions to Brad. The results are very pragmatic and typical engineering type response. Based on the cost of the starter and the time and effort involved versus the ‘minor’ cost of additional dry yeast the notion was that additional yeast could accomplish the same result from a fermentation standpoint. Those results could not be extrapolated to the use of liquid yeast because of its higher cost, low cell count amounts and shorter shelf life. In those cases, a starter might be useful.

So, back to the basics again. Buy yeast in bulk and use appropriate amounts as calculated. That is the process I now use as I try to avoid the yeast starter process.

As an example, for a recent 18 gallon ferment I used 60 grams of US-05 (six packet equivalents) and 70 grams of Go-Ferm. Go-Ferm may not be needed but I always use it to reduce the lag time for higher gravity mashes – a habit and possibly not a necessity. And I pop in a ground up vitamin B tablet as well.

As an editorial comment, your OG seems high for some yeasts. Be sure to check the tolerance of any yeast you intend to use.

I store the yeast in a sealed mason jar with a light proof cover (paper bags) in the refrigerator and it is good for up to two years. The cost per gram is about 40% the cost of packets.

This is a long answer and I apologize for the length.

This is great thank you. For beer, I always used liquid yeast and for normal gravity beers I would by 3 smack packs and to a 5 liter starter. For my Belgian at 8%, I did the same only stepped it up to a second 5 liter.

I’m not used of dry yeast yet and I certainly am new to “distillers” yeast.

Thanks for this info. It helps.

[Celticway]

Forgot to mention my beer batches are 18.5 gallons

[Celticway]

I am a relative newbie and my notions may just confuse you. That said, they are offered from the perspective of someone who wanted to determine the correct amount of yeast, whether to use a starter, and related questions.

My fermentation vessels are 20 gallon HDPE containers and the output (grain and liquid) of a 20 gallon SS pot to start the mash. Fermentation on is done on grain. Obviously amount of material in the fermentation vessel and the OG will determine yeast addition amounts.

At that size of fermentation I whined about the cost of yeast. Concomitant with that activity I decided to do research and of course develop some software that embodied the results of that research. As I went down that path it was obvious that cell count versus OG and yeast age were dominant characteristics for most strains of yeast. Having previously done ‘normal’ beer size batches of wort/must the concept of a starter had been avoided. Now with larger sized batches a starter was either needed or some other process. The literature at this point is not precise but there are several starter size calculators available and they all match fairly closely.

The results are surprising -- to maintain the ‘recommended’ cell count metric the size of the starter solution was fairly significant – almost 12L for a 75L batch or almost 16%. And that prompted my question regarding size.

What surprised me was the answer on the BeerSmith web site, the BeerSmith yeast tool and questions to Brad. The results are very pragmatic and typical engineering type response. Based on the cost of the starter and the time and effort involved versus the ‘minor’ cost of additional dry yeast the notion was that additional yeast could accomplish the same result from a fermentation standpoint. Those results could not be extrapolated to the use of liquid yeast because of its higher cost, low cell count amounts and shorter shelf life. In those cases, a starter might be useful.

So, back to the basics again. Buy yeast in bulk and use appropriate amounts as calculated. That is the process I now use as I try to avoid the yeast starter process.

As an example, for a recent 18 gallon ferment I used 60 grams of US-05 (six packet equivalents) and 70 grams of Go-Ferm. Go-Ferm may not be needed but I always use it to reduce the lag time for higher gravity mashes – a habit and possibly not a necessity. And I pop in a ground up vitamin B tablet as well.

As an editorial comment, your OG seems high for some yeasts. Be sure to check the tolerance of any yeast you intend to use.

I store the yeast in a sealed mason jar with a light proof cover (paper bags) in the refrigerator and it is good for up to two years. The cost per gram is about 40% the cost of packets.

This is a long answer and I apologize for the length.

This is great thank you. For beer, I always used liquid yeast and for normal gravity beers I would by 3 smack packs and to a 5 liter starter. For my Belgian at 8%, I did the same only stepped it up to a second 5 liter.

I’m not used of dry yeast yet and I certainly am new to “distillers” yeast.

Thanks for this info. It helps.

So according to the calculation (I also revamped my recipe) I will have a mash at 25 gallons, 1.072. So for dry yeast it looks like 125 grams would do the job. Does this translate the same for DADY, and would you concur the calculation?

[higgins]

...
So according to the calculation (I also revamped my recipe) I will have a mash at 25 gallons, 1.072. So for dry yeast it looks like 125 grams would do the job. Does this translate the same for DADY, and would you concur the calculation?

I use FermPro FSI-917 for my bourbon grain-in ferments, but they only call for 1 gram per gallon mash. Before that I used DADY, which is 1/8 to 1/4 tsp per gallon. 125 grams is a huge overpitch.

[Tedd squirrels]

The "tolerance" measure of a yeast is what they are capable of fermenting. It's not a measure of whether it will produce a good flavor at that max threshold. That difference is where you want to focus your understanding. There's a reason none of the tried and true recipes for distillation are targeting high gravity, and it's not just yeast choice.

There is a different approach in dense brewing and distillation, focusing on high gravity.
This is yeast to yeast tolerance. Few yeasts are tolerant of other races. But there are some - these are Mangrove Jack's "Mead M05", which can be used with any other yeast. They are not toxic to other yeasts and tolerate the toxins of others.
It is interesting to use them in tandem with fragrant but weak brewer’s yeast, which creates a bouquet of aroma and taste.
Weak, but very aromatic brewer's yeast dies, and M5 continues to live and produce alcohol up to 18% ABV. The result is a dense, aromatic beer with a given profile of weak yeast that will never ferment that high.
This high-density product can be used for very tasty and aromatic dense beer (tripel, quadrupel, pentupel), or for single distillation, where the high density allows you to do without multiple distillations just once.