Steam rig planning

[ckdistills]

I’m ready for steam! Been reading here for awhile, but serious now after my failed rye on electric experiment.

Here’s what I’m thinking and a few questions follow. Very similar to other builds here. Versatility is important, I can see using this with a steam wand to cook corn, steam strip rye or on-grain or on fruit, or in a traditional thumper configuration. I mostly make 20-25 gallon grain mashes so a 15 gallon keg would work well.

Boiler: existing 7.75 gallon slim 1/4 keg. I need 2 gallons to cover the element, which provides 5 gallons for steam with a bit of safety margin. Used as a thumper in traditional configuration.

Thumper: New 1/2 keg. Use as boiler when configured with a traditional thumper.

Steam injection. PRV with vacuum break on the steam generator, ball valve to vent steam (boiler always open to atmosphere), inclined pipe between steam generator & boiler so that water drips back to the boiler. Steam travels via 3/4” copper. Steam injected via 1/2” or 3/4” copper pipe inside 2” TC tee. Distillate exits via TC tee to product condenser.


Questions:
Do I need a manometer? It would provide safety redundancy but with the PRV is not strictly required? I’ll have a sight glass on both kegs and can see pukes. And my product condenser is CSST coil inside 2” pipe - would take gross negligence to clog.

Steam injection pipe size - I’d like to use 1/2” but don’t want risk it clogging. 1/2” lets me use fittings like these where with 3/4” I’d need to make the fittings.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/ ... double.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15m12npt.htm

What is the order of operations in use? Do you wait until you’re generating steam to insert the injection pipe into the thumper? Seems the safest to avoid clogging but practically a pain with very hot components and needing to loosen/tighten fittings as the connector angles change when inserting the pipe.

From my rye in electric boiler thread:

With a 3500w you'll carry over 93ml of water per min, heat up will take about about 74 mins, thats 1.8 gal just in heat up, then figure about a 2 hours to strip so thats another 2.94 gals. If your 7.75 kegs is like mine, you probably need 2 gal to cover the element. So you're right at 7 gals with no head space for the boil... I'd do your steam keg out of a 15g and only fill it with like 10 gals.

Sorry to detract from this electric thread... if/when you start another one we can carry on over there.

How is this calculated? I'd love to understand the math - have tried searching to no avail.

[Bolverk]

I'd stick with the 15 gal as the steam boiler filled to 10 gals. I think you're going to need at least 5, maybe 6 gals of water, to get through a run, and that 7.75g with a min fill of 2 gals is just isnt enough safety margin for me.

I'd say PRV in place of manometer, but you need one... just depends on how handy you are, or how much money you want to throw at it.


These are the online calculators I used to get those numbers

https://hobbybrennen.ch/Rechner/en/Watt ... ntity.html

https://gettopics.com/en/calc/water-heating-time

[Bolverk]

To add:

the down side of the big full boiler is you have to heat up 10 gals of water first then it will heat up your mash... so your looking at like a 2 hour heat up. But you don't need to screw around with float vales and live water.... so it's easier overall.

Conversely smaller rims tube style boiler will heat up in just a few mins, BUT now you need the float and to have to deal with all that.... overall more complex.

Just depends on how you want to proceed and what concessions you're willing to make.

[Salt Must Flow]

A 7.5 gal steamer boiler can be used as long as it has a float valve or float switch on the exterior of the keg. It would come to a rolling boil in approx 15 min or less at 5500W with 3-4 gal of water or so. You could also install two elements, heat-up or potentially strip at 11000W with steam.

[Dancing4dan]

Here is a picture of my steam rig. 1/2 keg and a 20 gallon thumper. Thumper is usually 1/3 to 1/2 full, To minimize heat up time and water loss make sure your steam arm runs up from the boiler to the thumper. I fill the boiler and plug it in. Then I assemble the res of the still. I believe currently using a 4500W / 240 V element. Only change I’m making is a silicone steam tip for next run. Steam arm is 3/4 from boiler to bottom of thumper.

[Bolverk]

A 7.75 gal filled to 4 gal will take about 25 mins to boil at the 3500w you have. So it with the float could be best or worst of both worlds depending on how you look at.

Personally i like the sanitary spool option, I got it to work with a 2" but I think that's less than ideal at my wattage, so I'm going to upgrade to a 4" tube. It will start boiling in 5 min +/- with my 4500w. I think a 2" tube with 3500w would work just fine

[Salt Must Flow]

A 7.75 gal filled to 4 gal will take about 25 mins to boil at the 3500w you have. So it with the float could be best or worst of both worlds depending on how you look at.

Personally i like the sanitary spool option, I got it to work with a 2" but I think that's less than ideal at my wattage, so I'm going to upgrade to a 4" tube. It will start boiling in 5 min +/- with my 4500w. I think a 2" tube with 3500w would work just fine

I like the idea of using a 7.5 gal keg mainly because you can use more than one heating element. That would greatly decrease heat-up time as well as more potential power for stripping. I don't know of any way to do that with a spool. A single spool may heat-up quicker with a single element, but overall less steam power.

[Bolverk]

I like the idea of using a 7.5 gal keg mainly because you can use more than one heating element. That would greatly decrease heat-up time as well as more potential power for stripping. I don't know of any way to do that with a spool. A single spool may heat-up quicker with a single element, but overall less steam power.

Fair point, if running more than 1 element was an option I'd 100% agree

[zach]

I use 88 liter (23 gallon) milk cans as thumper/ fermenters. I have two now looking for a third, as one is full of low wines.

I've had vigorous ferments with 15 gallon overflow onto the floor of the garage. Also I have nearly a full thumper at the end of a strip. I do insulate the thumper and the steam supply line. I'd consider the sight glass in the riser out of the thumper essential safety equipment on any type of stripper with solids.

I use a 15 gallon keg for a steam generator, with a 29 kw (100,000 btuh) propane burner. I use about 6-7 gallons of water for a strip.

I have a 5 psi steam rated prv, I'd prefer to have a 2 or 3 psi set point. I have enough power that I wanted an ASME rated valve that matches the potential steam generating capacity of my boiler. I have a 0-10 psi gauge that I have not seen above 0.5 psi. I have a manual ball valve for pressure or vacuum release that I operate once steam begins, and when the flame goes out.

I like the PRV that Dancing4Dan made with the steel ball over an orifice, and might make one to use for a pressure cooker regulating valve.

[ckdistills]

I'd stick with the 15 gal as the steam boiler filled to 10 gals. I think you're going to need at least 5, maybe 6 gals of water, to get through a run, and that 7.75g with a min fill of 2 gals is just isnt enough safety margin for me.

I'd say PRV in place of manometer, but you need one... just depends on how handy you are, or how much money you want to throw at it.


These are the online calculators I used to get those numbers

https://hobbybrennen.ch/Rechner/en/Watt ... ntity.html

https://gettopics.com/en/calc/water-heating-time

Thank you! Going to run a few scenarios with those calculators. And yes, agreed that 10 gallons in the thumper the plan.

And to add to original post - yes, I have a 3500 watt element. My keg is a 1/4 slim so my element is limited by width - that's the largest element I can fit in the keg. I'd be comfortable with a 4500 watt element on my circuit but can't find one that fits into the keg.

I also just measured 1.5 gallons of water necessary to more than cover the element (1/2" - 1" over element). So with 2 gallons I have a safety margin. Filled to 7.5 gallons I'd have 5 gallons for steam. I could also add another gallon to the boiler through the ball valve after the thumper has come up to temperature, that would pause the steam for about 7 minutes to come back to boil.

I'm not up for the complexity of the RIMS style boiler at this point. Most of this build should be reusable for that style should I want to go in that direction later. With 7.5 gallons of water in the boiler, I calculate under an hour to boil - that's fast enough for me.

[ckdistills]

Here is a picture of my steam rig. 1/2 keg and a 20 gallon thumper. Thumper is usually 1/3 to 1/2 full, To minimize heat up time and water loss make sure your steam arm runs up from the boiler to the thumper. I fill the boiler and plug it in. Then I assemble the res of the still. I believe currently using a 4500W / 240 V element. Only change I’m making is a silicone steam tip for next run. Steam arm is 3/4 from boiler to bottom of thumper.

Yes planning to keep the steam arm angled so water drips back to boiler instead of thumper.

Do you wait to insert steam arm into the thumper until it's at temp or do you insert it before it's pushing steam? Noted on the 3/4.

[Bolverk]

Thank you! Going to run a few scenarios with those calculators. And yes, agreed that 10 gallons in the thumper the plan.

And to add to original post - yes, I have a 3500 watt element. My keg is a 1/4 slim so my element is limited by width - that's the largest element I can fit in the keg. I'd be comfortable with a 4500 watt element on my circuit but can't find one that fits into the keg.

I also just measured 1.5 gallons of water necessary to more than cover the element (1/2" - 1" over element). So with 2 gallons I have a safety margin. Filled to 7.5 gallons I'd have 5 gallons for steam. I could also add another gallon to the boiler through the ball valve after the thumper has come up to temperature, that would pause the steam for about 7 minutes to come back to boil.

I'm not up for the complexity of the RIMS style boiler at this point. Most of this build should be reusable for that style should I want to go in that direction later. With 7.5 gallons of water in the boiler, I calculate under an hour to boil - that's fast enough for me.

Just another thought if the float is too much of a pain in the ass... You could work out some sight glasses and a decent needle valve and you could meter the water flow in to match your steam out.

[Tōtōchtin]

Thank you! Going to run a few scenarios with those calculators. And yes, agreed that 10 gallons in the thumper the plan.

And to add to original post - yes, I have a 3500 watt element. My keg is a 1/4 slim so my element is limited by width - that's the largest element I can fit in the keg. I'd be comfortable with a 4500 watt element on my circuit but can't find one that fits into the keg.

I also just measured 1.5 gallons of water necessary to more than cover the element (1/2" - 1" over element). So with 2 gallons I have a safety margin. Filled to 7.5 gallons I'd have 5 gallons for steam. I could also add another gallon to the boiler through the ball valve after the thumper has come up to temperature, that would pause the steam for about 7 minutes to come back to boil.

I'm not up for the complexity of the RIMS style boiler at this point. Most of this build should be reusable for that style should I want to go in that direction later. With 7.5 gallons of water in the boiler, I calculate under an hour to boil - that's fast enough for me.

Just another thought if the float is too much of a pain in the ass... You could work out some sight glasses and a decent needle valve and you could meter the water flow in to match your steam out.

That's what I plan on doing using a double float valve. Once water is displaced it would start a drip system using a 3/4 gal/ hour drip emitter. Use the bottom float as a kill switch.
Tōtō

[shadylane]

Questions:
Do I need a manometer? It would provide safety redundancy but with the PRV is not strictly required?

I like to see what's happening before it's a problem.
If only a manometer or PRV was going to be used, I'd pick the manometer.

You would have to spend money on a PRV for both pressure, vacuum and a lab grade pressure gauge to get the same thing a piece of clear hose and some water can do.

A manometer on the boiler will even measure how many inches of liquid is in the thumper.

[shadylane]

Versatility is important,

Have a BIG lid on the thumper. Or better yet use a lid with a water seal.
Design the thumper on a pivot, so it can be tipped over for emptying.
The large SS flex tubing used on water heaters is cheaper and more versatile than copper tubing and fittings. On the steam side of the rig, the silicon seals are acceptable if only water is used in the boiler.

[Eric]

I drill out 1/2 inch fitting so pipe will slide thru and soft solder fitting in place. Here's my safety setup only addition would be vacuum relief. 5 psi to 7.5psi is what I use 10 psi is above my comfort level.

[Powder Monkey]

If your budget allows I’d consider adding a 26gallon size. I posted my steam strip set up if you want any ideas. I like the Mano so if your injector does clog you can see the pressure rising and head it off. I enjoy the larger size. Stripping runs for 18-20is gallon 10% all grains require 6 or so gallons (your results likely would vary) but may be doable to run as a on grain “thump” from your keg. Plus could theoretically interchange elements/column for versatility.

[Steve Broady]

I’m curious, would a pair of nozzles opposite each other to induce a swirling motion be helpful? Or angle them down at 45 degrees or so for better mixing? Or does it even matter?

[Twisted Brick]

I’m curious, would a pair of nozzles opposite each other to induce a swirling motion be helpful? Or angle them down at 45 degrees or so for better mixing? Or does it even matter?

With the silicone tips, I found that my angled nozzles caused water to swirl, full grain mashes, no. I tried to 'help' the rotation of my rye mash but my paint stirrer rotated opposite the direction of my steam wand. Future detail to fix.

[Steve Broady]

With the silicone tips, I found that my angled nozzles caused water to swirl, full grain mashes, no.

Then my next question is, does it matter? Is there any benefit (other than it feels like it should be better) to getting the mash moving, or does it still strip cleanly?

[Twisted Brick]

Dunno. I let my ferments completely clear before stripping to avoid any yeast notes after aging. Others (including Eric) have reported their on-grain strips run fine.

[Dancing4dan]

Then my next question is, does it matter? Is there any benefit (other than it feels like it should be better) to getting the mash moving, or does it still strip cleanly?

I don’t believe a swirl matters as far as getting all of the ethanol out. If that’s what you mean by “strip cleanly” May make heat up faster but everything in my thumper boils. I’ve never had a steam thumper get cold spots unless I tried to steam grains that were to thick. then I hit it with a electric drill paint stir. I drain off the beer when ferment is done and steam just the grains that are left over.

I am getting ready to try first steam strip using single down pointing silicone tip.

When Im done a steam strip on grains my thumper continues to boil after the boiler is disconnected and the still is getting disassembled. Once the lid is off you can see the boil so I am confident the entire thumper is stripped.

[ckdistills]

Great details and guidance here - I'm digesting. Thank you.

I wanted to circle back to one of my original questions about steam wand pipe diameter. There doesn't seem to be much concern around using 1/2 inch instead of 3/4.

I drill out 1/2 inch fitting so pipe will slide thru and soft solder fitting in place. Here's my safety setup only addition would be vacuum relief. 5 psi to 7.5psi is what I use 10 psi is above my comfort level.

Eric, at least is also using 1/2.

Questions:
Do I need a manometer? It would provide safety redundancy but with the PRV is not strictly required?

I like to see what's happening before it's a problem.
If only a manometer or PRV was going to be used, I'd pick the manometer.

You would have to spend money on a PRV for both pressure, vacuum and a lab grade pressure gauge to get the same thing a piece of clear hose and some water can do.

A manometer on the boiler will even measure how many inches of liquid is in the thumper.

I admit the small size of a PRV & vacuum break is what is attractive. Rethinking this in favor of a manometer.

[Eric]

I did not see significant pressure difference from 3/4 to 1/2 steam feed line on my testing. Only that the steam has to travel faster in the 1/2 pipe to supply the same volume. My tests were 11000w. If you put a 3/4 valve on your air compresser and opened it would it build pressure, same test with 1/2 inch. My results found the steam generated was much less than what the pipe could deliver. My problem was where I introduced the steam to the mash with the clogging and pressure from steam wand or injector. Silicone tip mitigated those problems. It's an enjoyable path to steam stripping and cooking.

[ckdistills]

Thanks Eric. I'm only running 3,500 watts to really no concerns with ability to deliver steam but I do want to mitigate clogging. Good to know on the silicone tip. Or braided sleeve could serve the same purpose.

[ckdistills]

A manometer on the boiler will even measure how many inches of liquid is in the thumper.

Been thinking about this and can't figure out how? If it comes off the bottom side of the boiler it would act as a sight glass in addition to manometer. But if it's installed in the steam path is it still interacting with the volume in the boiler?

Edit to add: You specifically say "on the boiler". So I think I've answered my own question - can't tell you how long I've been trying to work out how this would work from the steam path!

[Tōtōchtin]

A manometer on the boiler will even measure how many inches of liquid is in the thumper.

Been thinking about this and can't figure out how? If it comes off the bottom side of the boiler it would act as a sight glass in addition to manometer. But if it's installed in the steam path is it still interacting with the volume in the boiler?

Edit to add: You specifically say "on the boiler". So I think I've answered my own question - can't tell you how long I've been trying to work out how this would work from the steam path!

I'm with you on this. I figured I'll figure it out once I made mine and it's up and running. It reads atmospheric pressure which in my brain in a open system who can it read what level of material is in the boiler.
Tōtō

[Dancing4dan]

Here is a picture of my steam rig. 1/2 keg and a 20 gallon thumper. Thumper is usually 1/3 to 1/2 full, To minimize heat up time and water loss make sure your steam arm runs up from the boiler to the thumper. I fill the boiler and plug it in. Then I assemble the res of the still. I believe currently using a 4500W / 240 V element. Only change I’m making is a silicone steam tip for next run. Steam arm is 3/4 from boiler to bottom of thumper.

Yes planning to keep the steam arm angled so water drips back to boiler instead of thumper.

Do you wait to insert steam arm into the thumper until it's at temp or do you insert it before it's pushing steam? Noted on the 3/4.

Sorry for delay. I missed this question.

I insert steam arm into the thumper and grains prior to pushing steam.

[Yummyrum]

A manometer on the boiler will even measure how many inches of liquid is in the thumper.

Been thinking about this and can't figure out how? If it comes off the bottom side of the boiler it would act as a sight glass in addition to manometer. But if it's installed in the steam path is it still interacting with the volume in the boiler?

Edit to add: You specifically say "on the boiler". So I think I've answered my own question - can't tell you how long I've been trying to work out how this would work from the steam path!

I'm with you on this. I figured I'll figure it out once I made mine and it's up and running. It reads atmospheric pressure which in my brain in a open system who can it read what level of material is in the boiler.
Tōtō

Use a drinking straw and blow bubbles in a glass of water with an inch in the bottom .
Now fill the glass and see how much harder it is to blow bubbles .

[shadylane]

On a potstill run, my boiler has a pressure of around 3 inches of water.
If The boiler is connected to a thumper with 10 inches of liquid in it, the boiler pressure will be 13inches