Why CCVM?

[shadylane]

What's better for neutrals CCVM or LM?

All the options work good for neutral.

[Oatmeal]

I still think the boka is the most versatile-you can get by with just the reflux condenser.

My current project is using the ccvm to strip sugar heads. With a plate and 12" of packing product is coming out pretty high proof (getting 1 gallon low wines out of a ten gallon batch). Takes 3 hours instead of 2.5. No moving of the coil. These will be spirit run with feints and a 10 gallon all grain wash...(so not just for neutral?)

[Setsumi]

Cheap, simple and effective.

Without reading all. Plus on this. You keep your CM and VM.... I will not call out LM... Cause it has its own CCLM.

A reflux head has a job. A CCVM does it like any other. If you don't believe me fill in the rest.....

Where is DAD?

[Setsumi]

Bolverk
In your opening post, you preferred a CM over a CCVM.
Have you used a CM with a tall column to produce neutral with approx. 96 %abv?
I have tried it and found it difficult to operate.

No, I'm not a neutral guy... if a ccvm is better for neutral then that certainly a reason to go in that direction.

I think that's the most pertinent answer Bolverk.

You wouldn't put together a CCVM for anything other than making neutral.

I run my flute on CCVM. A hobby scale flute in my shed does whisky.

[bobpratl]

The “tail end” of my RC would extend several inches below the bottom edge of the take off. My CCST RC is best described as a twist rather than a traditional coil

Thanks, I just wanted to make sure that my RC had sufficient travel.

[bobpratl]

What would the total reflux be, if a gate valve is added before the product condenser, on a CCVM column?

[elbono]

What would the total reflux be, if a gate valve is added before the product condenser, on a CCVM column?

At that point you have a combo VM/CCVM. Not much point in moving the condenser so to me it's a VM.

VM/LM/CM are different ways to adjust the reflux ratio. How you adjust it determines the ratio between 100% and the minimum.

LM/CM the minimum is close to zero.

On a VM the minimum is set by the column/takeoff diameters. The lowest minimum is 50% when they are equal unless you get it crazy fittings like a bullhead tee.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Original post asked why ccvm over cm.
I've never run a ccvm.
I do run a cm. I am not after neutral spirits. I've made mostly rum until my last 2 batches.
Yes a cm can be a bit tricky to run, but what isn't.
My wife can be a bit finicky sometimes but I'm happy with her.
I run most of the time in pot still mode. Never really understood the bad press a cm gets. Steady water pressure and flow rate are crucial. I don't use line/mains supply, use a pump that is regulated to stay as set until I need to change it.
Not sure if my opinion is what you were looking for or not.
Cheers

[The Booze Pipe]

So are we after a neutral spirit or a flavored spirit on this post? It really comes down to what you’re after, and what method suits you best to get there.

I didn’t care for the CCVM mostly because the reflux coil I put together didn’t slide well. Plus I felt like I was guessing on its position. I’ve ran a CM once or twice, and it kind of seemed the same, guessing on settings.

I just converted to VM and I like it. It was easy to set, and make changes from the start. No guessing.

[Osse87]

Can you adjust the ccvm reflux condenser water temperature to not overcool your condensate without product coming out the product pipe? I'm thinking, if you want steam to dwell inside the condenser (IE hot exit water temp) which is often many times longer than the diameter of the product take-off, it would also take the easy way out the product pipe? Most ccvms reflux condensers I've seen does not extend much below the product output when in its lowest position, in my world this would need very cold reflux condenser temperature to knock down vapours or am I missing something? Hope I'm making sense with my questions

[Salt Must Flow]

Can you adjust the ccvm reflux condenser water temperature to not overcool your condensate without product coming out the product pipe? I'm thinking, if you want steam to dwell inside the condenser (IE hot exit water temp) which is often many times longer than the diameter of the product take-off, it would also take the easy way out the product pipe? Most ccvms reflux condensers I've seen does not extend much below the product output when in its lowest position, in my world this would need very cold reflux condenser temperature to knock down vapours or am I missing something? Hope I'm making sense with my questions

What you've pointed out sounds perfectly logical to me. Not only would you have to fiddle with raising & lowering the reflux condenser, it sounds like you might also have to fiddle with the water flow too. It sounds like a longer reflux condenser would at least keep you from having to fiddle with the water flow.

[kimbodious]

Can you adjust the ccvm reflux condenser water temperature to not overcool your condensate without product coming out the product pipe? I'm thinking, if you want steam to dwell inside the condenser (IE hot exit water temp) which is often many times longer than the diameter of the product take-off, it would also take the easy way out the product pipe? Most ccvms reflux condensers I've seen does not extend much below the product output when in its lowest position, in my world this would need very cold reflux condenser temperature to knock down vapours or am I missing something? Hope I'm making sense with my questions

You mean like this?

Versus this?

[Yummyrum]

I think Kimbodious drew it correct . It does not matter if you gently cool it or barely cool it , Either way , all vapour that hits the RC will be condensed .

The whole thing comes back to VM . Vapour splitting . If the tee is equal , half vapour goes up and the other half goes out the tee . The half that hits the RC will be condensed.

[Osse87]

Can you adjust the ccvm reflux condenser water temperature to not overcool your condensate without product coming out the product pipe? I'm thinking, if you want steam to dwell inside the condenser (IE hot exit water temp) which is often many times longer than the diameter of the product take-off, it would also take the easy way out the product pipe? Most ccvms reflux condensers I've seen does not extend much below the product output when in its lowest position, in my world this would need very cold reflux condenser temperature to knock down vapours or am I missing something? Hope I'm making sense with my questions

You mean like this?
IMG_3486.jpeg

Versus this?
IMG_3487.jpeg

No I meant in a full reflux situation, like this (hope it makes sense).

Lets say I want a RC water exit temp of 45-50 degrees C, how far up the RC will the vapours linger? Would I need a significantly lower RC water exit temp for the CCVM to stay in full reflux?

[kimbodious]

You can just push the reflux coil lower if you are worried that the water temp in your RC isn’t low enough. The supply water for my RC is at least 26C (79F), never has any problems reaching total equilibrium/ full reflux on my CCVM.

[MooseMan]

Same as Kimbodius, if you get anything going over to the PC, just drop the RC down a little.
I now actually let fores drip through painfully slowly while holding mine in (>99%?) reflux at the start of a neutral run, as it saves me a little time.
Suggested by someone here wiser than me!

[Osse87]

Thanks for the explanation guys! Do you monitor water exit temp from the RC when running your ccvms and what temp do you try to run them at? Do you sometimes lower the RC in your rigs substantially lower than what is indicated from the images I provided to achieve full reflux?

[NormandieStill]

I think most people operate by output until they know what settings work well for their still. That is to say, sit it in all the way and see if you can get full reflux. If not, you may have an issue with your condenser or need to run cooler water but that might pose a sensitivity issue.

If you can get full reflux, lift the condenser a little and wait a minute to see if you get drips from the PC. If not, lift it again... And so on.

Collecting into a measuring cylinder and timing the collection will let you know how fast you're taking off.

From my experience you should probably expect to do at least a couple of runs of playing before you dial in some settings that work. Watch what happens to the abv as you increase the take off rate. Or as you increase the power to the boiler.

[MooseMan]

Thanks for the explanation guys! Do you monitor water exit temp from the RC when running your ccvms and what temp do you try to run them at? Do you sometimes lower the RC in your rigs substantially lower than what is indicated from the images I provided to achieve full reflux?

I don't monitor any temps at all no, I run at a water flow that will keep 100% reflux with the coil down as far as it will go.
I start high water flow, settle the column at a power input that my still likes then slow the water down until I get a sign it's letting vapour pass, either from a drip, or from the RC spool getting hot above the Tee. Then I go a tiny bit higher on water flow and that's set.
Then when I feel the column has started to settle at that, I lift the RC one coil at a time over a couple of minutes until I get super slow drips of fores.

[OldRanch]

Howdy all,

I see all these CCVM builds and I'm curious what the draw is... you either go from 0 or 50-100% reflux, the dimroth condensers look like a pain in the ass to build, and the whole dropping the coil down into the vapor path seems again like a pain in the ass. I can't think of a single professional distillery running a CCVM. A standard CM with inline dephleg seems so much easier, is adjustable from minimal reflux (id say 0-100 but even an empty dephleg is going to have a little reflux) up to 100%.

What's the draw to these designs? I'm clearly missing something. Please understand, I'm not talking shit, I honestly don't understand why someone would build one.

Best,

Edited for typo

Im not sure where you're getting your reflux %'s

My dimroth is perfect and took me ten minutes to wind up, and has more knockdown power than i could ever need

I saved hundreds on a valve and more ss spools, clamps, etc.

I can make any type of liquor i want to with it, just like other reflux designs

its mindless, set and forget unless im pushing for 97% ABV, then i'd be fiddling with a valve either way

[Salt Must Flow]

A 1" stainless steel gate valve cost like $20 so there's no meaningful cost savings argument for CCVM over VM. Dephlegmators require constant & consistent flow rate, pressure and temp to operate steadily. VM requires neither of those parameters to operate steadily. VM can read the vapor temp while equalizing while CCVM and a CM stills cannot.

With my 3" VM I start equalizing at full reflux. Meanwhile I tune a little needle valve to adjust the reflux condenser's exiting water temp to around 110F-135F. That's really simple to do, but not required.

Once equalized, I supply water to the product condenser with a little needle valve (water at approx 110F), I crack my gate valve open 3 full turns and begin taking off foreshots (0.58 lph). It doesn't get simpler or more repeatable than that.

Later I crack the gate valve open 1 more turn once into heads (1.5 - 1.8 lph).

Once into hearts I crack the gate valve open 2 more turns (3.25 lph) where it stays for the rest of the run.

I don't have to manually raise & lower the reflux condenser and/or wedge something into it to make it stay put. I simply turn a knob and ALWAYS get the exact same performance and take-off rate without any doubt. People can like their CCVM stills, but there's no debate that it's just a more crude and incomplete version of a VM. When designing a still to omit a simple gate valve, you have to make certain sacrifices. You get what you pay for.

[Osse87]

Can you adjust the ccvm reflux condenser water temperature to not overcool your condensate without product coming out the product pipe? I'm thinking, if you want steam to dwell inside the condenser (IE hot exit water temp) which is often many times longer than the diameter of the product take-off, it would also take the easy way out the product pipe? Most ccvms reflux condensers I've seen does not extend much below the product output when in its lowest position, in my world this would need very cold reflux condenser temperature to knock down vapours or am I missing something? Hope I'm making sense with my questions

What you've pointed out sounds perfectly logical to me. Not only would you have to fiddle with raising & lowering the reflux condenser, it sounds like you might also have to fiddle with the water flow too. It sounds like a longer reflux condenser would at least keep you from having to fiddle with the water flow.

Happy to hear it made some sense! This what I described is mainly the reason I avoided and went for a regular VM, I could not explain it in the beginning even for myseld but starting to understand why I think VM is more predictable and reliable (not saying it necessarily is, I've not tried a ccvm). You could of course lower the RC even further down below product take off and run less coolant water if you want to increase dwell time inside the condenser and make use of all the height of the condenser. But if you only lower it as much as in the picture in dad300's thread (which I've included above) I cannot imagine you get away with anything else than overcooling your condensate to achieve full reflux. Tho a lot of people seem happy with their ccvm's. Repeatability and less fiddling or I would loose interest in running my still me thinks. It's already fiddly enough keeping sugar washes happy and the apartment not looking like a full time destillery.

[OldRanch]

A 1" stainless steel gate valve cost like $20 so there's no meaningful cost savings argument for CCVM over VM. Dephlegmators require constant & consistent flow rate, pressure and temp to operate steadily. VM requires neither of those parameters to operate steadily. VM can read the vapor temp while equalizing while CCVM and a CM stills cannot.

With my 3" VM I start equalizing at full reflux. Meanwhile I tune a little needle valve to adjust the reflux condenser's exiting water temp to around 110F-135F. That's really simple to do, but not required.

Once equalized, I supply water to the product condenser with a little needle valve (water at approx 110F), I crack my gate valve open 3 full turns and begin taking off foreshots (0.58 lph). It doesn't get simpler or more repeatable than that.

Later I crack the gate valve open 1 more turn once into heads (1.5 - 1.8 lph).

Once into hearts I crack the gate valve open 2 more turns (3.25 lph) where it stays for the rest of the run.

I don't have to manually raise & lower the reflux condenser and/or wedge something into it to make it stay put. I simply turn a knob and ALWAYS get the exact same performance and take-off rate without any doubt. People can like their CCVM stills, but there's no debate that it's just a more crude and incomplete version of a VM. When designing a still to omit a simple gate valve, you have to make certain sacrifices. You get what you pay for.

Im glad you like your still. It sounds really nice.

that sounds like a lot more fiddling than i typically do with my ccvm

Im not sure how you're connecting your 1" valve to your 3" still, but im 100% sure it costs more than $20 to do so, considering reducers, more clamps, gaskets, probable supports due to the extra weight put on the keg bung (assuming you have a keg)

Im not sure how we ended up with the conclusion that "simple/ minimal = crude" but i'll leave that to you and your dictionary

[bobpratl]

Im not sure how you're connecting your 1" valve to your 3" still, but im 100% sure it costs more than $20 to do so, considering reducers, more clamps, gaskets, probable supports due to the extra weight put on the keg bung (assuming you have a keg)

OldRanch, you are correct, with the valve plus tri clamp adaptors, it is very top heavy and required support. Mine was very wobbly and after adding a gin basket it would not support itself. Presently I am in the process of fabricating a 1" x 6' adjustable pipe stand instead of strapping the PC end to a rafter.

[Salt Must Flow]

A 1" stainless steel gate valve cost like $20 so there's no meaningful cost savings argument for CCVM over VM. Dephlegmators require constant & consistent flow rate, pressure and temp to operate steadily. VM requires neither of those parameters to operate steadily. VM can read the vapor temp while equalizing while CCVM and a CM stills cannot.

With my 3" VM I start equalizing at full reflux. Meanwhile I tune a little needle valve to adjust the reflux condenser's exiting water temp to around 110F-135F. That's really simple to do, but not required.

Once equalized, I supply water to the product condenser with a little needle valve (water at approx 110F), I crack my gate valve open 3 full turns and begin taking off foreshots (0.58 lph). It doesn't get simpler or more repeatable than that.

Later I crack the gate valve open 1 more turn once into heads (1.5 - 1.8 lph).

Once into hearts I crack the gate valve open 2 more turns (3.25 lph) where it stays for the rest of the run.

I don't have to manually raise & lower the reflux condenser and/or wedge something into it to make it stay put. I simply turn a knob and ALWAYS get the exact same performance and take-off rate without any doubt. People can like their CCVM stills, but there's no debate that it's just a more crude and incomplete version of a VM. When designing a still to omit a simple gate valve, you have to make certain sacrifices. You get what you pay for.

Im glad you like your still. It sounds really nice.

that sounds like a lot more fiddling than i typically do with my ccvm

Im not sure how you're connecting your 1" valve to your 3" still, but im 100% sure it costs more than $20 to do so, considering reducers, more clamps, gaskets, probable supports due to the extra weight put on the keg bung (assuming you have a keg)

Im not sure how we ended up with the conclusion that "simple/ minimal = crude" but i'll leave that to you and your dictionary

So opening a valve 3 times and initially adjusting water flow to the condensers is "a lot more fiddling" than you do? Ok

Wow you're making a whole lot of assumptions there.

[NormandieStill]

1aaA
So opening a valve 3 times and initially adjusting water flow to the condensers is "a lot more fiddling" than you do? Ok

Wow you're making a whole lot of assumptions there.

As I now know my CCVM quite well, and as I'm a fairly lazy operator for neutral, I know how many coils need to be visible out of the top of the tee. So I have two positions, full reflux and take-off.

I am planning on switching to a VM because I do think that adjusting a valve is easier, but if I didn't build one originally it's because there's an added cost which is significant enough that it dissuaded me. Unless your $20 valve comes with 2" triclamp fittings on both ends it's not a drop-in upgrade and the final cost will be significantly more than that.

[Saltbush Bill]

All of this talk of fiddly makes me laugh a bit , CCVM, VM, LM , not one of them is fiddly compared to something like a T500 which is where some poor buggers have started out.
Then we have the cheap Chinese jobs with the inadequate condensers sitting on top of the boiler and such, I once had the misfortune to try to help a newbie run one of those........NOW THAT IS FIDDLY.......there seems to be no limit to what can go wrong or need adjusting with them.

[bobpratl]

As I now know my CCVM quite well, and as I'm a fairly lazy operator for neutral, I know how many coils need to be visible out of the top of the tee. So I have two positions, full reflux and take-off.

This is where experience shines because you obviously know your equipment, so in your case, you don't need to convert to a VM system. I haven't gotten to this point yet because I'm still fiddling with a VM valve, and learning. This is what makes this hobby interesting to me.

[kimbodious]

All of this talk of fiddly makes me laugh a bit , CCVM, VM, LM

Don’t forget CM. If there was one easy way, we’d all be using it !

[Salt Must Flow]

1aaA
So opening a valve 3 times and initially adjusting water flow to the condensers is "a lot more fiddling" than you do? Ok

Wow you're making a whole lot of assumptions there.

As I now know my CCVM quite well, and as I'm a fairly lazy operator for neutral, I know how many coils need to be visible out of the top of the tee. So I have two positions, full reflux and take-off.

I am planning on switching to a VM because I do think that adjusting a valve is easier, but if I didn't build one originally it's because there's an added cost which is significant enough that it dissuaded me. Unless your $20 valve comes with 2" triclamp fittings on both ends it's not a drop-in upgrade and the final cost will be significantly more than that.

I really don't know why people always mention cost as though it is a significant factor. A VM doesn't require a Tee or any Tri-Clamp connections. Connections can be welded, brazed or even soldered. One could use threaded fittings if they wanted to. Tri-Clamp is just one 'option'. A VM head can easily be a "drop-in upgrade" by simply adding one cheap Tri-Clamp ferrule. Ideally during the original planning of a still build, things like this can be considered if they took the time to understand how different stills function, how they are operated, the benefits and drawbacks of each.

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