Advantages with larger cloumn size

[Dirksy]

Hi All

I was asked by SSB to create a new topic on column size. I looking for info as I currently have a 1.5 inch column on my still. thank you all....Cory

[Salt Must Flow]

Reflux columns that are larger in diameter can have a higher take-off rate than smaller diameter columns. It's recommended to have a packed column height that is at least 20 times the diameter. For 2" that would be at least 40" tall of packed column. For a 3" column that would be 60" (5') tall.

It seems that 2" is the introductory size (likely the most common size) of hobby reflux columns and are relatively slow in comparison to a 3" column. Without pushing my 3" VM to its limits, I can easily get 3.25 LPH at 95% + ABV at 2750W. If I were to step up to a 4" column, I recall reading that I could approx double the take-off rate, but would require twice the power that I'm currently using. I knew I didn't want a 2" column or a 4" column so I felt that a 3" column would be just right for me.

This info should help make more sense of this:
1-1/2" column has a cross sectional area of 1.47 sq"
2" column has a cross sectional area of 2.78 sq"
3" column has a cross sectional area of 6.38 sq"
4" column has a cross sectional area of 11.58 sq"

A 2" column has nearly twice the cross sectional area of a 1-1/2" column so it can use approx twice the power and get approx twice the take-off rate.

[MooseMan]

Great explanation there for those interested in reflux column sizing SMF.

Dirsky what exactly do you have currently and what is it you are trying to achieve/improve on/make?

[Saltbush Bill]

Ive got a few questions,
Did you build or buy this still ?
Are the plates perforated or are they a bubble cap design ?
Is the deflegmator also 1.5 inch and how long ?
Is there any chance of a photo ?

[Dirksy]

Hi All
I currently have a 1.5 inch column, my deflag is 1.5 and about 1 ft long and my plates are bubble. The Still was a Christmas present from my loving wife. I only have myself to blame, I simply showed her what I was looking for (oblivious to the issue that we are discussing). I can see now from SBB comments on 3.25 LPH at 3 inch vs my 750ml - 1.25 LPH at 1.5 inch ....I just didn't know
I have made 2 x 46L runs of Apple Brandy (free fruit), I have made 1 x 46L of Teddy Sads FFV, and am currently fermenting 46L of Birdwatchers. I am very interested in SBB's Rum (collecting the Parts, blackstrap molasses is really pricey where I'm at), I'm also a big bourbon and Rye fan, and want to get into the all grain mashes, but don't quite have all the gear to deep dive these fermentations. I just want to make the best tasting liquor I can.....and I believe HD will get me there.....such a great resource....Dirksy

[Stonecutter]

Larger columns have the ability to run faster but are classically used with larger boilers. Did you know that it takes roughly the same time for both a dog and an elephant to void their bladder?
I love my 4” column it gave me a reason to get a bigger mash tun and a bigger fermenter. My coffers are filled faster as well.
Cheers

[Salt Must Flow]

I incorrectly assumed you were referring to a packed reflux column. Saltbush Bill realized you could be asking about a plated still and he was right. Others will have more accurate input on plated stills.

[Dirksy]

Hi SMF
I ran my brandy wash no reflex (used copper mesh in my column) take off still about the same as my Bubble plates....thank you

[Saltbush Bill]

I can see now from SBB comments on 3.25 LPH at 3 inch vs my 750ml - 1.25 LPH at 1.5 inch ....I just didn't know

I dont think it was me that said that , most people i know will run a 4 pate 4 inch column at between 2 and 3L an hour, the still will be producing at about 92% abv at that rate.
Personaly I prefer the lower end of that spectrum, 2 to 2.5 LPH.
A 3 inch plated column will run slower again from my experience.
And then a 1.5 incher must be painfully slow to use.
I cant begin to imagine how fiddly it is to try running a 1.5 inch diameter , plated column.
Once up to operating temp the amount of water needed to keep the defleg doing its job would be minuscule I would imagine.
I would also think that power input to the boiler would require some fairly fine adjustment to successfully run a column of that size.
You've got a lot more patience than me that's for sure.
Does this still have sight glasses so that you can see what is happening at each plate ?

[shadylane]

A 1.5" bubblecap column.
What style of downcomer is being used.

[Dirksy]

Hi Bill
Yeah my bad not you, confused you with Salt Must Flow (pardon me Gentlemen). You are right Bill lot of time to think while running the 1.5.....I do use a ton of ice to keep the Deflag cool as slow as it goes.....gonna copy Xxxxxx from X and X and cannibalize an old AC unit....can't afford a chiller, can't seem to make enough Ice blocks either, and definitely got to get a needle valve on my deflag inlet. My bubble plates are stainless top and bottom with glass middle, and 3 downcomers up and 1 down to answer Shadylane's question. You can see my gear that came from Clawhammer if you look at their distillation equipment....they have pretty good pictures on the site. Will try to post pics once I figure out how to lower the picture settings on my laptop. Yes Bill heat and balancing/keeping my plates loaded is very difficult, still running on propane till I can get my PID controller built and running. Any tips and tricks on that would be appreciated....Dirksy

[Salt Must Flow]

Someone will come in and explain why that George character is not to be named here. He's a nonsense machine and has repeatedly promoted incorrect information.

A PID controller cannot be used to operate a still properly. You need a variable power controller. You need to be able to turn the power up and down to operate a still.

[Setsumi]

I would like to see your bubblecaps with a size reference. Those must be tiny.

[Saltbush Bill]

Dirksy , time to read the forum rules....or re-read if you already have, a slight edit to your post as well.
app.php/rules
"Links to these sites and videos are not welcome here and will be deleted"
As already explained that site has caused untold trouble here in past years through giving out false
and misleading information.

.I do use a ton of ice to keep the Deflag cool as slow as it goes.

I wouldn't have thought that a still of that size would use much water, could you not just use a couple of large plastic buckets or a garbage bit and recycle the water, using a small 12 volt pump , or similar.
Having ice cold water shouldn't really be needed.
As already mentioned a PID is not the tool for regulating power to a boiler. What you need is a controller. Two quite different things.
The link below explains in simple terms why you cant use temperature to separate the fractions of a run and why temp control is not good for distilling.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html

[Dirksy]

Hi Bill
Yeah my bad not you, confused you with Salt Must Flow (pardon me Gentlemen). You are right Bill lot of time to think while running the 1.5.....I do use a ton of ice to keep the Deflag cool as slow as it goesunit....can't afford a chiller, can't seem to make enough Ice blocks either, and definitely got to get a needle valve on my deflag inlet. My bubble plates are stainless top and bottom with glass middle, and 3 downcomers up and 1 down to answer Shadylane's question. Yes Bill heat and balancing/keeping my plates loaded is very difficult, still running on propane till I can get my PID controller built and running. Any tips and tricks on that would be appreciated....Dirksy

[shadylane]

You can see my gear that came from Clawhammer if you look at their distillation equipment....they have pretty good pictures on the site. Will try to post pics once I figure out how to lower the picture settings on my laptop.

Looks like 1.5" fittings but the plates and glass are bigger than that.

[Reefer1]

Dirsky, just to chip in, regarding the PID thing, when i started i built a PID using youtube Georges design, after using it for a few times even as a novice i couldnt get the still to stabalize properly, under advice i built a variable power controller, its a different world, forget the PID mate save your money.

[haggy]

Dirksy,

From your description of your column and from mulling over the Clawhammer products, seems like you actually have a 3" bubble cap column with two 3" bubble cap plates and a 1.5" diam sight glass in between the two plates. A 10" long x 1.5" diam deflegmater above the plates makes it a CM reflux column. The 3" plates have 3 caps and 1 downcomer, standard for a 3" plate. Is this correct?

Repeating what you said:

My bubble plates are stainless top and bottom with glass middle, and 3 downcomers up and 1 down to answer Shadylane's question. You can see my gear that came from Clawhammer if you look at their distillation equipment....they have pretty good pictures on the site.

I currently have a 1.5 inch column, my deflag is 1.5 and about 1 ft long and my plates are bubble. The Still was

The confusion is that the tri clamps to connect the plate sections are 1.5" - and Clawhammer names the section by the tri clamp size.

If that is a sight glass in the middle, then this is a two plate 3" bubble cap column. They are very hard to make a steady run. It would be a better still if you would buy another bubble cap section and put it in the middle and put the sight glass between the top plate and the deflegmater. Then you have a 3 plate column which will be much better to run steady.

I also looked over your run information. With a gas burner, we do not know the watts you ran. But if you did not flood the column and ran a wash, then you were at 3000 watts or less. A 4 hour run would result if you ran about 0.6 L/hr product rate.

Can you be more specific on the defleg operation. What do you mean by needing ice, maybe to cool the cooling water supply? With a CM column, the product rate is controlled by the defleg water flow rate and the pot watts. It would be good to know what cw rate you are running, a flowmeter on the cw inlet could help. And a needle valve for flow control. You would need a cw flow rate of about 100 to 1000 ml/min when running the column.

You can find out more about these bubble cap columns in this thread. The section on bubble caps starts with the October 23, 2022 post.

viewtopic.php?t=88352


I will chime in a later with some suggestions for your run inputs and their expected results.

haggy